Posted on 01/14/2002 11:35:19 AM PST by NATE4"ONE NATION"
9.5 Theses for the Next Reformation
Modern-day Reformers Post Document on 'Church Door'
We the undersigned, out of love for the truth and a desire to see all Christians honor and acknowledge all that God has revealed in his Word, submit these 9.5 Theses for your prayerful evaluation and participation with us in calling for further reform. May these theses be the spark that ignites the next Reformation of Christianity.
1. Everything Jesus said would happen, happened exactly as and when He said it would-within the lifetime of his contemporaries.
2. Everything every New Testament writer expected to happen, happened exactly as and when they expected it would-within their lifetime-as they were guided into all truth and told the things that were to come by the Holy Spirit (Jn. 16:13).
3. Scholars across a broad spectrum are in general agreement that this is exactly how every NT writer and the early Church understood Jesus' words. If they were wrong on something this important, how can we trust them to have conveyed other aspects of the faith accurately, such as the requirements for salvation?
4. No inspired NT writer, writing twenty or more years later, ever corrected their Holy-Spirit-guided understanding and fulfillment expectations (Jn. 16:13). Neither should we. Instead, they intensified their language as the "appointed time of the end" (Dan. 12:4; Hab. 2:3) drew near-from Jesus' "this generation" (Mat. 24:34), to Peter's "the end of all things is at hand" and "for it is time for judgment to begin" (1 Pet. 4:7, 17), and John's "this is the last hour . . . . it is the last hour" (1 Jn. 2:18).
5. Partial fulfillment is not satisfactory. 3 out of 5, 7 out of 10, etc., won't work. Partial does not pass the test of a true prophet (Deut. 18:18-22). Again, Jesus time-restricted all of his end-time predictions to occur within the 1st-century time frame.
6. God is faithful (2 Pet. 3:9) and "not a man that he should lie" (Num. 23:19). Faithfulness means not only doing what was promised, but also doing it when it was promised.
7. 1st-century, fulfillment expectations were the correct ones and everything happened, right on time-no gaps, no gimmicks, no interruptions, no postponements, no delays, no exegetical gymnastics, and no changing the meaning of commonly used and normally understood words. Such manipulative devices have only given liberals and skeptics a foothold to discredit Christ's Deity and the inerrancy of Scripture.
8. What needs adjusting is our understanding of both the time and nature of fulfillment, and not manipulation of the time factor to conform to our popular, futuristic, and delay expectations.
9. The kingdom of God was the central teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ, is a present but greatly under-realized reality, and must again become the central teaching of his Church.
9.5. We have been guilty of proclaiming a half-truth-a partially delivered faith to the world and to fellow Christians. We must repent and earnestly "contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). If Christianity has been as effective as it has by proclaiming that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came, died for our sins, bodily arose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven "at just the right time" (Rom. 5:6; Dan. 9:24-27), how much more effective might it be if we started preaching, teaching, and practicing the whole truth-i.e., a faith in which everything else also happened "at just the right time," exactly as and when Jesus said it would and every NT writer expected (Jn. 16:13). Dare we continue to settle for less?
Surely today, the words of Martin Luther, as he stood in defense before the Diet of Worms in 1521, are still applicable and compelling for the "always reforming" Church:
"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves), I am bound by the Scriptures . . . and my conscience is captive to the Word of God . . . . I cannot do otherwise. "
Original Signatories
John Noe, President Prophecy Reformation Institute Indianapolis, Indiana Rick Chromey, Professor of Christian Education Saint Louis Christian College Florissant, Missouri
Edward E. Stevens, President International Preterist Association Bradford, Pennsylvania
Danny Griffin, President Carolina Christian Ministries Charlotte, North Carolina
John Anderson, President Lighthouse World Ministries Sparta, North Carolina
Walter C. Hibbard, Former Founder & Chairman Great Christian Books, Inc. Newark, Delaware
Mike Lightfoot, Pastor Father's House Fellowship Clarkston, Washington
Terry Siverd, Minister Cortland Church of Christ Cortland, Ohio
Kenneth J. Davies, President Grace Ministries Lemon Grove, California
Joseph Lewis, Pastor Fulfilled Bible Fellowship Delair, New Jersey
Jerry Wayne Bernard, Vice President Scripture Research, Inc. Riverside, California
Arthur J. Melanson, President Joy of the Lord Ministry Audubon, New Jersey
Jerry Hester, Pastor Dominion Community Church Greer, South Carolina
Terry M. Hall, Minister Miami Valley Church Beavercreek, Ohio
Gene Fadeley, President Anchor Publishing Charlotte, North Carolina
Rod Moyses, Manager M2ktalk.Com, (internet-satellite radio networks) Fresno, California
Stan Newton, Pastor Missionary to Bulgaria Seattle, Washington
Timothy R. King, Pastor Central Baptist Church Grand Junction, Colorado
Walter Koch, Pastor Emanuel Centro Christiano El Monte, California
Jack C. Scott, Jr., Minister Glacier View Church Kalispell, Montana
A. Wilson Phillips, Pastor Abundant Life Covenant Church Springfield, Missouri
Thomas A. Price, Jr., Pastor Sherman Community Church Sherman, New York
Don K. Preston, Minister Ardmore Church of Christ Ardmore, Oklahoma
David Curtis, Pastor Berean Bible Church Cheasapeake, Virginia
Jessie E. Mills, Jr., Minister Central Church of Christ Bonifay, Florida
Bud Fleisher, Host/Producer "Let's Talk Religion" (radio program) Clearwater, Florida
Ron Smith, President Friendship In Action (mission work in Mexico) Mission,
Texas Bill Clark Brumbaugh, Host Proactive News (nat'l syndicated radio program) Bozeman, Montana
James R. Hopkins, Minister Daleville Church of Christ Daleville, Alabama
William Bell, Minister Raines Road Church of Christ Memphis, Tennessee
Published by the Prophecy Reformation Institute: a conservative, evangelical ministry dedicated to continuing the Reformation into the field of eschatology-end-time Bible prophecy, and the International Preterist Association.
Books for the Next Reformation
· Chilton, David. "The Days of Vengeance." Ft. Worth, TX.: Dominion Press, 1987.
· DeMar, Gary, "Last Days Madness: Obsession of the Modern Church." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, 3rd ed., 1997.
· *________. "End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology." Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2001.
· Gentry, Jr., Kenneth L. "Before Jerusalem Fell." Atlanta, GA.: American Vision, revised ed., 1998.
· *Noe, John. "Beyond the End Times: The Rest of . . . The Greatest Story Ever Told. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· *________. "Dead In Their Tracks: Stopping the Liberal/Skeptic Attack on the Bible." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2001.
· ________. "Shattering the Left Behind Delusion." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· ________. "The Israel Illusion: 13 Popular Misconceptions about This Modern-day Nation and Its Role in Bible Prophecy. "Fishers, IN.: PRI, 2000.
· ________. Top Ten Misconceptions about Jesus Second Coming and the End Times. Fishers, IN.: PRI, 1998.
· Otto, Randell E. "Case Dismissed: Rebutting Common Charges Against Preterism." Bradford, PA.: IPA, 2000.
· Russell, J. Stuart. "The Parousia." Bradford, Pennsylvania: IPA, 2002. Reprint of the second edition originally published by T. Fisher Unwin, in London, England in 1887.
· *Sproul, R.C. "The Last Days According to Jesus. "Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1998.
· Stevens, Edward E. "Questions About The Afterlife. "Bradford, PA.: IPA, 1999.
· ________. "What Happened In A.D. 70?" Bradford, PA.: IPA, 6th ed., 2001.
· Terry, Milton S. "Biblical Hermeneutics. "Eugene, OR.: Wipf and Stock Publishers, 1890, 1999.
* (top priorityread first)
FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: John Noe Prophecy Reformation Institute 9715 Kincaid Drive Suite 1100 Fishers, IN 46038
E-mail: jnoe@prophecyrefi.org Ph.# 317-841-7777, Ext. 350 Fax# 317-578-2110
Edward E. Stevens International Preterist Association 122 Seaward Ave. Bradford, PA 16701
E-mail: Preterist1@aol.com Ph.# 1-814-368-6578 Fax# 1-814-368-6030
Be sure to visit our websites: www.prophecyrefi.org. Website: www.preterist.org.
_ Copyright 2001 by John Noe
All rights reserved. This material may be reproduced or transmitted by any means in any form, electronic or mechanical, including photocopy, recording, or any information storage and retrieval system, without prior written permission, but only in its entirety-i.e., both pages.
I'm not sure I quite go that far since I think there are a few passages that seem to be pretty clear that refer to a day when the dead will rise and Christ will return and every will see it.
However, I do think that a lot of the passages that people bring up saying "See? It's all about to end" might have meant something different to the people they were written to. I don't think they would have interpreted them as not to be fulfilled for 2000 years or so, given that over and over, they were told to pay attention to what they were reading since the time was at hand.
In particular, I don't think sacrifices are going to be offered in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. At least not as a fulfillment of prophecy. That doesn't mean someone might not do it, but if they did, the sacrifices would not be any more pleasing to God then they were between 33 and 70 when the temple was destroyed. The teachings of the letters to the Colossians, Romans, and especially Galatians and Hebrews are pretty clear to me that Christ's sacrifice was once for all and fulfilled the Mosaic law. So I don't really expect to see the temple rebuilt any time soon.
Gamma
You make some reasonable points, particularly that about their native tongue. This is exactly what was happening hence the "in which we were born" caveat. The 120 were speaking in an angelic language, the crowd "heard" each in his own native tongue because they were unknowingly and by the power of the Holy Ghost interpreting the tongues in their native language. Your lip syncing comment is exactly correct hence the intoxicated references. To suppose that so great an impression was made simply by demonstrating language skills is IMHO totally erroneous an utterly without logic or reason. I would mark anyone who is that easily convinced by so illogical and devoid of common sense an argument.
No matter how you slice it, the gift of tongues at Pentecost can only make sense if God's Spirit was working in the speaker, not in the hearers.
Not so.
NATE, I agree and am working up a study on this. Don't let up, this is the most powerful verses against fulfillment (I don't like the term preterism) and you are on the right track. Please pay particular attention to this tongues discussion unless you too are convinced I am "slobbering gibberish", a "liar" and given to "epileptic seizures". Satans vocabulary keeps up with the latest medical information, interesting.
Don't assume that just because I don't stand with you that I don't believe in Spiritual Gifts or that I have not had any supernatural experiences.
Post #244: It is the Gospel itself which Man finds alternatively Astounding or Offensive... and it was their response to the Gospel, good or ill, which informed the opinions of the sojourners as to whether the Power over Foreign Tongues was truly a miracle of God, or a drunken carnival event to be derided (and ignored as quickly as possible). - OrthodoxPresbyterianYou are still missing the point that OP and I are trying to make with you. Some of these people are spiritually dead and some are not because they have been regenerated and born of God. Read Post #273 again.
Your words are simply lies, vmatt. We know that they are lies because that is not what Luke recorded -- and if it is a battle of historical record and theology between you and Luke, news flash, Luke wins, you lose.
Luke states categorically that the Apostles spoke in the tongues of the foreign sojourners, NOT in any kind of imagined holy gibberish. THEREFORE, any who would twist and pervert (in fact, re-word entirely) the plainest words of Scripture, inventing ideas of "angelic language" into the Text which are not there in the service of buttressing their Gospel of Gibber, must be regarded as liars in the service of the Father of Lies.
You re-word Scripture to serve your own purposes! Good grief.
You can't do that. Scripture is Infallible; your personal emotivistic experiences of drooling epileptic convulsion, are not. Period.
have never been the same since and have experienced other things from this same power which would bring me even more ridicule if revealed.
Perhaps RIGHTLY so!!
If the miracle of "tongues" is actually the miracle of "ears", then doesn't that completely impeach any claim you charismatics make to continuing the tradition of Pentecost? How many foreign language speakers have ever heard a modern charismatic speak in tongues and been converted? Do you Pentecostals train your missionaries in foreign languages or not? ~~ GWB
I doubt vmatt will realize this, but this ironic question is an utterly damning indictment of his position.
A case of Michelob says he'll miss your point entirely (such an easy bet for a Presbyterian to make with a Baptist... like you'd actually collect, heh heh!!)
The Saturday Evening Post, May 16, 1964, p. 32 - Praying in tongues has recurred at intervals throughout the Christian era, although it did not affect large masses until early in this century. Its advocates were quickly expelled from the established churches, whereupon they established the Pentecostal churches. For 50 years it remained the almost exclusive possession of the Pentecostal churches.
I found this confirming my contention that tongues is indeed as old as Christianity itelf. I did not source this but I am already convinced beyond doubt that this was the case. Mankind has not found a way to control this gift and present it in a nice neat box for sale. It is truly like the wind blowing where it will. You see yourselves the attempts of churches regarding the precious gifts of God, they pervert them to mandated rituals like the false healing, burning breast and gibberish phenomenon. I see them to, am apalled and this is the reason I am not attending an assembly today. Do not let these works of Satan blind your minds and turn to me a deaf ear when I speak the truth.
Would that somehow relate to the fulfilling of the following scripture:
"Mr 12:36 David himself said in the Holy Spirit, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies the footstool of thy feet."
If so, would that point to the possibility that the 'second coming' was more like an internal revelation given to the individual rather than an external manifestation to the masses?
Could history be used as a metaphor -- or a parable to understand what occurs to the indivdual in their spiritual quest and progress?
Assuming for the sake of illustration that this is true, that would make us, the natural mind, the footstool of the mind of Christ as carnal thinking atrophies -- carnality being defined as the attributes of a mind focused outward, unable and perhaps unwilling to discern and accept spiritual laws and concepts. Taking John the Baptist's words, we could say that we decrease while He increases in us on an individual basis.
Is the internalization of the 'second coming' where you are essentially coming from or leading up to?
Thanks for the nudge.
"How are we all hearing the same person speaking in all our own different native languages? Look, their lips are moving awkwardly. Hmmm. They must be drunk...wait, this is "confounding", "amazing", "marveling", impossible!
WHAT MEANETH THIS?
Sorry, I couldn't hear the second because of the first one. Do you honestly expect me to regard your words as the Truth when you don't even gather with other saints?
I hear this line all the time:
"I don't go to church because they are full of hypocrites." ~~ Great, cause they are full of current and former whoremongers as well. And they are full of murderers and all kinds of vile worms. Christ came for the ungodly.Honestly, what do you expect when you look for a church that espouses your version of tongues. I searched for 16 long years when I left the Episcopal before I found a home. In the end, I had to help build her.
OTOH, it does seem as if you are just reversing/confusing your position because of the heat you are rightfully taking for such an unBiblical version of tongues. Hmmmmmm!
I find your position--exceedingly--wellllll--blind and/or silly. . . but I think it will take events to prove it to you. . . I only hope you are open enough to see things in front of your face at those times.
No, I don't care to argue the specifics. I have other fish to fry.
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