Is always "doing the right thing" possible? How does it hurt to imagine no one has achieved it?

jan 4, 2001 | xzins

[xzins]

This is a philosophical debate I was part of. Got any philosophers out there in freeperland?

[Duke Nukum]

There is also virtue in simply doing no harm (in some situations), which can be classified as doing the 'right thing' in a negative sense.

I do not know if this can be classified as doing no harm, but I do believe that sometimes, maybe even a lot of the time, the right thing is to do nothing.

This is what I think of as the "patience of the saints" because doing nothing is the hardest thing, I think.

[Wife of D28Man]

I'm interested in where you had this debate, and how it turned out.

The question reminds me very much of a similar one posed in a college classroom to the (very impressionable) son of a friend of mine. The question was: Is there such a thing as a true altruistic action? And the professor pounded it into their heads that the answer was, of course, no. And as he knocked down every single instance offered (heroic rescue, mother's care, etc.) he managed to instill a sense of guilt about their innate self-centeredness.

Then when these kids felt sufficiently desperate for affirmation, the professor suggested that the way to prove their willingness to be truly altruistic would be to give up their right to personal property so that the state could distribute the wealth fairly and so that the environment would be saved from capitalistic predation.

Of course, those weren't the words he used. He was probably fluent in Daschlespeak. But it worked. After four years of this kind of "philosophy", my friend's son is an adamant (and joyless) socialist.

Ever since that revelating discussion, I've been highly sensitive to "human perfection" philosophical questions - ESPECIALLY if they originate in academia.

[Duke Nukum]

I call it "my gut" too sometimes. Sometimes I call it "my angel" or "my voice."

Next time you come to a fork in the road and do not know which way to go, try listening to your gut first. This is what I can do, sometimes, if I am self-possessed. Works great for finding those pesky keys too.

[caisson71]

Yes, "wondered" should have been there. Thanks. I'll be glad to summerize the book once I've read it. I don't think "perfect' anything is achievable in this world. I may be too pragmatic or cynical to believe in "perfect morality" in this world also. We are imperfect beings after all.

[BraveMan]

How does it hurt to imagine no one has achieved it?

Oh, but someone has! Find out for yourself who that someone is, trust in him, and the hurt will disappear . . .

[nothingnew]

This is what I can do, sometimes, if I am self-possessed.

I think this is not self-possesed, I think it is precisely the opposite...When you open your "gut"...(heart, solar-plexus,...perhaps soul...)to Him, He even helps you find your car keys...BWAHAHAHAHAHAA!...HE, (LIFE), IS GRAND!

FReegards,

FMCDH

[Duke Nukum]

Yes, by "self-possessed" I mean "not-running-around-like-a-chicken-with-its-head-cut-off."

"Self-possessed" is just more economical. That is when I think to ask.

[kampeska]

Good post, Post.

[kampeska]

This question was raised by my teacher when I was in the fifth grade. We debated it. It was decided that one could do the right thing all the time if he always dedicated everything he did, no matter what is was, to God..(Catholic School). But I think that is what the muslims do when they keep invoking God. Comparitive religion would indicate that we can only shade toward the right anyway so you should follow your bliss. My wife has indicated that since she never soes anything wrong she must always do the right thing. It seems to be one of those prespective things.

[xzins]

. That ought to clear things up

LoL....clear as mud.

Truthfully, though, your point about being incapable of ALWAYS doing the WRONG thing is sorta neat in a backward kind of way. It says that on occasion we stumble into the right or work up enough fortitude to do the right or somehow get pushed into doing the right.

[xzins]

Both believe they follow the teachings of Jesus

But Catholics believe Jesus is really alive, don't they? In that case, if two "christian" denominations had beliefs that are opposites, then it is very likely that Jesus actually DOES prefer one of them to the other. It's possible that it's a non-issue with Jesus, and that he'd eventually make that clear also.

Take, for instance, the issue of convenience abortion. It's also true that Catholics, generally, reject abortion and that liberals, generally, support abortion. In an absolute moral code I really cannot see that being a non-issue or a neutral issue. It's going to turn out that one was right and one was wrong.....IMHO.

[ninenot]

The right thing is knowable and do-able--with grace and courage (grace from God, courage from you) Go out, therefore, and DO IT!!!

[xzins]

I'm interested in where you had this debate, and how it turned out.

The debate was in a religious setting. Actually, the emphasis turned out to be on the 2nd question. The point was that there could be no ultimately negative consequences of some one of us humans ever having achieved "perfection" (defined as 'always doing the right thing.)

To think, though, that NO ONE had ever attained such a simple sounding achievement, "always doing the right thing," was somewhat depressing.

[nothingnew]

But you still should use reason and make the best choice you can with dignity and then have the integrity to live with the consequences of your actions, to include making restitution to another party if through your ignorance you wronged them. That's my opinion anyway.

One of the best opinions I've read in a long time. You have the basic rules down for living a peacefull and truthfull life (in my opinion).

Great reply and KUDOS to you.

FReegards,

FMCDH

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

Exactly. Now, would not the inverse be true? Thereby providing the answer to your original question.

[DoughtyOne]

There are plenty of tough questions for Christians. For some of them there simply are no answers. I guess the only real answer is that faith sometimes goes beyond mere belief in the Trinity, to belief that the Trinity is infalible.

That being said, I don't particularly find excellent questions like yours to be challenging to my faith. I believe that after Jesus second coming when He takes the righteous away with Him, there will be a period of time when the natural questions that need to be answered will be addressed to Him and answered.

Judas did separate himself from Jesus. Had he been listening he would have known that Jesus kingdom was not of this earth. There are some who believe that Judas was trying to force Jesus hand. "If I betray Him He will use His powers to avoid prosecution or death, and He will then assert His authority and set up His kingdom." Judas was wrong. Realizing that he had brought about Jesus death, Judas was crushed.

Judas didn't just doubt Christ, he betrayed Him. He contributed to His death. He missed all the signals. He may have even denied access to the Holy Spirit to the degree that he was without the only direct contact to God that any of us have. Thus, having possibly made the unforgivable sin, Judas may have been beyond rescue.

Jesus was betray and arrested. I doubt anything He could have said would have rescued Judas. The death of Jesus would have left Judas devistated no matter Christ's reassurances.

Hey, this is the best I can do. Like I said, I don't have all the answers. In fact, I have far too few answers.

[xzins]

So, you have taken the position that it is not possible to "always do the right thing."

Given your first answer, how do you answer the second question: "How does it hurt to imagine no one has achieved it?"

In other words, are there ANY ways that the knowledge or the fact of moral imperfection causes damage?

[xzins]

It is possible to derive from your essay a moral code based on life, freedom, and reason. (I realize you didn't intend this and that what you wrote is broader than that condensation....but go with on this for a moment.)

You seem to be suggesting that if a person is true to reason, even if nothing more than choosing the lesser of two evils, that this constitutes being "right." I took that to mean that you believe a person can get to the state of "always doing the right thing" based on the moral code that you've proposed above.

The title had 2 questions. The first was about doing the right thing. The second is "how does it hurt to imagine no one has achieved it?"

Can you answer that question if it applies?

Also, if your answer to the first is "yes, it can be achieved through reason," then "how does it help to imagine that this is achievable?"

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

"In other words, are there ANY ways that the knowledge or the fact of moral imperfection causes damage? "

Well, yes I suppose there are.
One that pops to mind right off the bat is that some, seeing that others have tried and failed will assume that it IS impossible and simply give up and stop trying.
This can have consequences on still others whom would benefit from the efforts of those attempting to always 'do the right thing'.

Example: Joe Everyguy is reading the newspaper and says, "I see in the news that a guy got himself killed last night while trying to rescue a woman from a rapist. Semms the rapist had a gun and shot him. It just isn't worth getting involved so why even try?"

And BTW, I haven't necessarily taken the position that it is impossible to always do the right thing. I'm more than willing to give it a try. I'm just postulating some ideas that popped into my head, in a hypothetical vein.
Devil's Advocate type of thing, you know.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

Great answer and some really good points.
Also, it was not my intention to challenge your faith. It is not up to me to even try.
Rather, I take joy in your faith, as I do in my own. It is always comforting to see someone so committed to the Jesus.