J.D. Vance says Ukraine will have to ‘cede some territory’

1ft.io ^ | 10 Dec23 | Ramsey Touchberry

[delta7]

Sen. J.D. Vance said Sunday that U.S. officials should accept the notion that Ukraine is likely to “cede some territory” in its fight against unprovoked Russian aggression. The Ohio Republican’s remarks come as Congress weighs more aid for Ukraine, with Democrats calling for additional assistance with few if any strings attached and Republicans trying to link aid to more funding to secure the southern U.S. border. “What’s in America’s best interest is to accept Ukraine is going to have to cede some territory to the Russians and we need to bring this war to a close,” Mr. Vance, who opposes more aid, said on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “But when I think about the great human tragedy here, hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans innocent have been killed in this conflict, the thing that’s in our interest and in theirs is to stop the killing.” President Biden has requested another $60 billion for Ukraine as part of a $110 billion national security package that also includes money for Israel and Taiwan. “On the Ukraine question, in particular, everybody with a brain in their head knows this was always going to end in negotiation,” Mr. Vance said. “The idea that Ukraine was going to throw Russia back to the 1991 border was preposterous. Nobody actually believed it.”

What we’re saying to the president, and really to the entire world, is ‘You need to articulate what the ambition is. What is $61 billion going to accomplish that $100 billion hasn’t?’” he added.

[Gaffer]

Look at what zealots you are. You, Bro-whatever STALK me and my comments to Monterrosa-24 to throw in your nonsense. You even go to the trouble to put words in my mouth and ascribe ‘real motivations’ for my comments and feelings on UKR, our border, etc.

You zealots are sick people. You cannot stand anyone who has a differing opinion not supporting UKR. You are not changing anyone’s minds - only reinforcing mindless, repetitive pap spewed out multiple times a week by your comrade UKR zealots.

Next time you ridicule a statement about NATO and its operations (wars/bombings) in the Med (Syria, Libya and threats of action in UKR) try and understand what NATO and its original CHARTER/NAME means - NORTH ATLANTIC. A ‘really’ nonsense reply is just that - nonsense.

[BroJoeK]

rxh4n1: "What’s this “we” horseshite?
Unless “we”, meaning the USA, get in it, no one is going to destroy Russia in Ukraine."

"We" is the same "we" you referred to here:

rxh4n1: "They are not going to attack NATO; they know we could destroy them if we had to"

I'm saying "we" are not destroying Russia in Ukraine, so it's not yet 100% certain "we" would defeat them anywhere else.

rxh4n1: "Which is it?
Either they’re incompetent doofuses like many here claim, or they’re ten feet tall and going to take over Europe.
It can’t be both.
Also, this is not the 1930’s, that’s a bogus comparison."

Of course it is both and it's like the 1930s.
The Old Soviet army in 1945 was a far cry from what it had been in, say, 1939, and so today, Russians are relearning how to fight and win, in much the same way they fought the First World War.

A key fact to keep in mind is that Ukraine for Russia represents a potential 1/3 increase in Russia's population, economy and military capacities.
Victory over Ukraine would also hugely enhance Russia's stature in the world and reputation among other eastern dictatorships.
It would give life to their "Decline of the democratic West" narrative and make every new aggression by such dictatorships that much more difficult to oppose.

And that is the larger issue in Ukraine.
It's what makes today very similar historically to the 1930s, indeed uncanily similar.

[Gaffer]

You’re nothing but a cultist STALKER who thinks he can ridicule and stop opposing comments that don’t comport with your UKR-or-nothing thinking.

[BroJoeK]

Reverend Wright: "Zeepers in July 1914:
“I stand with Serbia !”"

In 1914, the Russian Empire stood with Serbia against the invasion by Austria-Hungary.
Germany saw Russia's partial mobilization as a threat and so Germany declared war on... France! and invaded... Belgium!
The Brits didn't care in the least about Serbia and were determined to stay the h*ll out of it, until Germans marched into Belgium and then Brits felt obliged by treaty to come to Belgium's defense.
And so it went, the war gathering ever more steam...

None of that resembles what we are looking at today.

What does most resemble today are the events in the mid to late 1930s, beginning with:

1. 1931 Imperial Japan invaded China, "not our war"

2. 1936 Fascist Italy invaded Ethiopia, "not war"

3. 1936 Nazi Germany occupied the Rhineland and in 1938 invaded Austria, "not our war"

All of those were "not our wars" until suddenly they all became our war, at the overall costs of circa 75 million lives and untold trillions (est. $72 trillion) of dollars, in today's $ equivalents.
That is a basic lesson of history that, after 1945, everyone understood, and nobody needed to be reminded of until just the past few years.

[BroJoeK]

Kazan: "This has been a NATO proxy war against Russia from the start.”"

BJK: “Those words are pure Russian propaganda insanity."

Reverend Wright: "The Pentagon has just appointed a three star to go over there for even closer “supervision”"

Sure, almost two years later, not "from the start".

"STUTTGART, Germany — A three-star U.S. Army general based in Germany is now spending a lot of time in Kyiv, where he is taking a hands-on role in improving the quality of advice the U.S. is giving to Ukraine’s military, according to a New York Times report.

Lt. Gen. Antonio Aguto Jr., who leads the military’s security assistance initiative for Ukraine from the U.S. Army’s European headquarters in Wiesbaden, is being dispatched to the Ukrainian capital on a rotational basis, the newspaper said Monday."

Of course, the US and other countries have provided some help from the start, but I think it's still a stretch to call that help, even today, "a proxy war".

proxy war: "a war instigated by a major power which does not itself become involved:"

Russia instigated the war in Ukraine, so it's not a proxy war unless you claim Vlad the Invader is only a proxy for the CCP's Xi-snake!
No, I don't think so.

[Reverend Wright]

“In 1914, the Russian Empire stood with Serbia against the invasion by Austria-Hungary.
Germany saw Russia’s partial mobilization as a threat and so Germany declared war on... France! and invaded... Belgium!
The Brits didn’t care in the least about Serbia and were determined to stay the h*ll out of it, until Germans marched into Belgium and then Brits felt obliged by treaty to come to Belgium’s defense.
And so it went, the war gathering ever more steam...

None of that resembles what we are looking at today. “

---

The alliances and treaties pulled everyone into a small Balkan war, and made it a continent wide European war.

NATO will pull everyone into a small Eastern Europe war, and make it a global war.

[rxh4n1]

Sigh. This is just another stupid ethnic border war. Not worth a cent of our taxpayer dollars or the lives of our kids. It is certainly not our war. You’re so concerned, go volunteer. Ukraine is taking foreign volunteers. Don’t send my kids.

[BroJoeK]

BJK: "I think at this point eventual official NATO membership for Ukraine is all but inevitable."

Reverend Wright: "If that turns out to be the case the Russians will likely set Ukraine’s eastern border at the Seret River."

Russians will do that anyway, as soon as they are able.
They believed they were able in February 2022, but their expectations were a bit... premature.

[BroJoeK]

JonPreston: "If a NATO airbase is used to attack 🇷🇺Russia, that airbase is a legitimate target.
The nation hosting that NATO airbase has entered conflict and is also a legitimate target.
Does the US understand this?
Does NATO?"

Nothing Vlad the Invading War Criminal does is ever "legitimate".
It is all 100% illegal, and he is a mass murderer, who needs to stand trial for his war crimes, period.

If, for whatever reasons, Vlad the War Criminal decides to attack a NATO country, then NATO will respond, and I don't think we can predict in advance the outcomes.

In a worst case, it would severely damage NATO countries and destroy Russia as a nation and a people.
So, Vlad's attack on NATO would be an international version of "suicide by cop", in this case, Russian national "suicide by NATO."

By the way, nothing I've said here is new, it has all been a simple fact of life for about 74 years, since NATO was formed in April 1949.
Every Soviet and Russian leader, from Old Uncle Joe Stalin on, well understood it, and they wisely chose not to mess with NATO.

So, the question now is: is Vlad the War Criminal as minimally sane as his predecessors were?
Honestly, I don't know, but we also didn't know how sane any of Vlad's predecessors were either, at the time, and they all proved to be OK, or at least non-suicidal.
We'll see about Vlad, I suppose.

[BroJoeK]

JonPreston: "WATCH: Last night on @LoomerUnleashed, I reported that Zelensky @ZelenskyyUa has decided to move to Florida."

Doubtless that is pure Kremlin BS, straight from the information sewer pipes of the Russian Ministry for Agitation and Propaganda.

[Reverend Wright]

While the 2022 peace negotiations were going on, Russia’s territorial demands were much smaller. But that was based on Ukrainian neutrality, and Ukraine not being in NATO.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60901024

Now that it is announced that Ukraine will be in NATO, Russia will face NATO troops at their front line. So that line will be defined by a terrain analysis for military defence.

Which means the Ukraine Eastern boundary will be either the Dnieper, or likely Ternopil and the Serets River area.

Ukraine fought a war to join Globohomo. The West urged them to do it and supported them (after a fashion) in order to damage the Russian military.

Ukraine has had hundreds of thousands killed, millions have left.

The Russians have had losses but they are currently on a mass industrialization to a war economy where their military will be much, much more dangerous.

I expect that if the Russians end up just outside Lviv, the West will become so frightened that they will not put what’s left of Ukraine in either NATO or the EU, and make even more concessions.

From the perspective of the West, not a very satisfactory outcome.

I feel sorry for the Ukrainians. They made some poor decisions, but in they were failed by the Globohomo Regime that can’t follow thru on its own committments.

[BroJoeK]

Gaffer: "Look at what zealots you are. You, Bro-whatever STALK me and my comments to Monterrosa-24 to throw in your nonsense."

So, I understand that you've been posting on Free Republic for 25 years now, and yet somehow you never noticed the word "Free" in "Free Republic"?
How did that happen?

When did you forget that if you post your own opinions on Free Republic, you can well expect to have them challenged by others of different opinions?
When did you somehow join the Woke crowd of snow-flakes and cancel culture?
Really?

Gaffer: "You even go to the trouble to put words in my mouth and ascribe ‘real motivations’ for my comments and feelings on UKR, our border, etc."

And yet, in your post #116, you invented a quote from me out of whole cloth, you claimed I said, “your nuclear fears are irrational and insane," when I never said anything resembling that.
So, putting your own words in other people's mouths is something you are very familiar with, isn't it, FRiend?

Of course, if you think I've misstated your views, then feel free to post your own opinions correctly.

Gaffer: "You zealots are sick people.
You cannot stand anyone who has a differing opinion not supporting UKR.
You are not changing anyone’s minds - only reinforcing mindless, repetitive pap spewed out multiple times a week by your comrade UKR zealots."

It sounds to me like you are here describing your own mental state and projecting it onto people you disagree with.

Gaffer: "Next time you ridicule a statement about NATO and its operations (wars/bombings) in the Med (Syria, Libya and threats of action in UKR) try and understand what NATO and its original CHARTER/NAME means - NORTH ATLANTIC.
A ‘really’ nonsense reply is just that - nonsense."

I see.
So how many NATO countries border on the Mediterranean Sea?
I count 9 of 31 NATO countries, almost 30% of all NATO members border the Mediterranean:

1. Turkey
2. Greece
3. Albania
4. Montenegro
5. Croatia
6. Slovenia
7. Italy
8. France
9. Spain

[BroJoeK]

Gaffer: "You’re nothing but a cultist STALKER who thinks he can ridicule and stop opposing comments that don’t comport with your UKR-or-nothing thinking."

I see... and when did you first notice that you've become a Woke cancel-culture snowflake, FRiend?
Have you sought help for that condition?

[Gaffer]

Screw oft

[Gaffer]

You are an OCD UKR ZEALOT stalker.

[BroJoeK]

Reverend Wright on August 1914: "The alliances and treaties pulled everyone into a small Balkan war, and made it a continent wide European war."

Not really, because at the core of your idea here is a Big Lie believed by many and perpetrated by WWI losers, that they were not responsible, that it was all just a big mistake, an accident that nobody caused and nobody should be held to account for.

In fact, by 1914, the German High Command had been looking for years, for an excuse, an incident they could use as pretext for starting the war they wanted to fight -- their Schlieffen Plan, invading France through Belgium before turning east to conquer Russia.

In June 1914, that pretext arrived, gift wrapped, in the form of the assassination of the Kaiser's personal close friend, the Austrian Archduke Ferdinand and his wife in Sarajevo.
The old Austrian Emperor, Franz Joseph, didn't like his nephew Ferdinand or especially Ferdinand's wife Sophie, and was just as happy to see them dead, but the German High Command, with the Kaiser's approval, urged, pressured, pushed the Austrians into issuing an ultimatum to Serbia, rejecting Serbia's reasonable response, to immediately declare war and invade Serbia.

Knowing how Russians would react, the Kaiser himself wanted a very quick war against Serbia, urging Austrians to invade quickly and then end it quickly, before the rest of Europe had time to respond.
But it didn't happen quickly enough, and by the time Austria declared war, Russians were already beginning to mobilize.
At some point right here the Kaiser himself lost courage, not wanting to start a larger war, but he was, in effect, overruled by his High Command, and so ultimatums were issued, war against Russia declared and the very next day, Germany invaded Luxembourg!!

So, the First World War was not an "accident", it was not avoidable, it was in fact the execution of a plan, the Schlieffen Plan first devised in 1905.

Reverend Wright: "NATO will pull everyone into a small Eastern Europe war, and make it a global war."

Of course, that is the whole purpose of NATO, but it can only ever happen if Vlad the Invading War Criminal decides he wants to commit national "suicide by cop", in this case, "suicide by NATO".
Then the world will pay a terrible price, but the Russian nation will be utterly destroyed, in the same way as the losers of the Second World War, only I fear, far worse.

German plans for 1914 War, based on Schlieffen Plan:

[BroJoeK]

rxh4n1: "Sigh.
This is just another stupid ethnic border war.
Not worth a cent of our taxpayer dollars or the lives of our kids.
It is certainly not our war."

Of course, you are right, "it's not our war", in the same sense as the 1930s:

1. 1931 Imperial Japan invaded China, "not our war"

2. 1936 Fascist Italy invaded Ethiopia, "not our war"

3. 1936 Nazi Germany occupied the Rhineland and in 1938 invaded Austria, "not our war"

All of those were "not our wars" until suddenly they all became our war, at the overall costs of circa 75 million lives and untold trillions (est. $72 trillion for the US alone) of dollars, in today's $ equivalents.
That is a basic lesson of history that, after 1945, everyone understood, and nobody needed to be reminded of until just the past few years.

rxh4n1: "You’re so concerned, go volunteer.
Ukraine is taking foreign volunteers.
Don’t send my kids."

I already did, many years ago, I in effect "stood guard" near the Fulda Gap in West Germany, to prevent Vlad the Invader's Old Soviets from doing there what they are now doing in Ukraine.

My military service to NATO proved that "peace through strength" works like a charm.
Ukraine illustrates yet again what happens when aggressive dictators perceive weakness, corruption and/or stupidity in the democratic Western alliances.

Sadly, each new victory by the Eastern dictators' New Axis of Evil (Russia, CCP, NoKo & Iran, for starters), makes defeating them the next time that much more difficult and costly.

Today I'm far too old for any service, much less the military, but I'm sure as h*ll still able to argue the case for Ukraine here on Free Republic.

This is the Big Picture, democratic West versus authoritarian East.
green & yellow = more democratic, red & black = authoritarian dictatorships (New Axis of Evil).

[JonPreston]

words, don't skimp on the WORDS!!!

[JonPreston]

DON'T SKIMP ON MY WORDS!!!

🚨 PUTIN'S FIRST PRESS CONFERENCE: UKRAINE WILL BE DEMILITARIZED | THEY ARE FREELOADERS

Russian President Vladimir Putin made significant statements during a press conference:

- "There will be peace when we achieve our goals... the denazification of Ukraine, its… pic.twitter.com/dGTjdDpkvT— Mario Nawfal (@MarioNawfal) December 14, 2023

[BroJoeK]

Reverend Wright: "While the 2022 peace negotiations were going on, Russia’s territorial demands were much smaller.
But that was based on Ukrainian neutrality, and Ukraine not being in NATO.
Now that it is announced that Ukraine will be in NATO, Russia will face NATO troops at their front line.
So that line will be defined by a terrain analysis for military defence.
Which means the Ukraine Eastern boundary will be either the Dnieper, or likely Ternopil and the Serets River area."
[note Ternopil & Serets River in western Ukraine, on map]

First, thank you for laying out the case for Russian aggressiveness, because there are a good many posters on Free Republic who swear on a stack of their own Bibles that poor, peaceful Russia is not a threat to anybody.

But you are here explaining how Russia is absolutely an existential threat to not only Ukraine, but also NATO generally.
You confirm that it's not just some ancient "border dispute".

Reverend Wright: "Ukraine fought a war to join Globohomo.
The West urged them to do it and supported them (after a fashion) in order to damage the Russian military."

Well... first, "Globohomo" is just insane Russian garbage talk straight from the Kremlin's information sewer pipes.
It has no objective validity outside brains poisoned by Russian propaganda, and you know that very well.

Second, here's how insane it all is -- in 2013 most Ukrainians opposed joining NATO and wanted to remain more neutral.
That ended, naturally, when Vlad the Invading War Criminal occupied and annexed Crimea in 2014.
Since then Ukrainians have searched desperately for allies to help them defeat the monstrosity to their north and east.

And it has taken us years but slowly, the democratic west has begun to realize the true nature of threats from Vlad the dictator against the democratic allies and has upped our game against Russia, especially since February 2022.

Reverend Wright: "Ukraine has had hundreds of thousands killed, millions have left.
The Russians have had losses but they are currently on a mass industrialization to a war economy where their military will be much, much more dangerous."

We don't know the true casualty numbers, but Ukraine's estimate of Russian losses is circa 350,000 iirc, while US intelligence estimates 315,000.
Ukrainians say their losses are roughly one third Russia's and maybe one-tenth during Russian insane "Meat Wave" assaults on fixed Ukrainian positions.
Overall, western estimates are Ukraine losses at about half of supposed Russian numbers.
But at this point, none of it is certain.

As for Russia ramping up their own war-production machine, and mobilizing more corpses for "Meat Wave" assaults, I think that is happening, though the outcome is far from predetermined.
So far, Vlad has prosecuted his invasion by using convicts released from jails, plus men impressed from non-Russian captive nations, to stock his insanely massive "Meat Wave" assaults.
What exactly could happen when Vlad has to begin drafting actual Russians from Moscow or St. Petersburg is, as yet, unknown.

Reverend Wright: "I expect that if the Russians end up just outside Lviv, the West will become so frightened that they will not put what’s left of Ukraine in either NATO or the EU, and make even more concessions.
From the perspective of the West, not a very satisfactory outcome."

Ukraine has partnered with NATO since the 1990s (as did Russia back then), and since Russia's invasions began, Ukraine has requested full membership.
In July 2023, at the NATO Vilnius summit, allies confirmed that Ukraine will become a NATO member, though no date was set.

As for Russians potentially camped along the Seret River, that's brave pro-Russian talk, at this point roughly as believable as Vlad the Invader's claims of a, what was it, six days? 2022 "special military operation".

Reverend Wright: "I feel sorry for the Ukrainians.
They made some poor decisions, but in they were failed by the Globohomo Regime that can’t follow thru on its own committments."

Well, first, I don't think you feel "sorry" at all, you certainly don't sound sorry.
I think, rather, that you glory & revel in Russia's rebirth of dictatorship, aggression and empire.
How such feelings might have anything to do with a Free Republic though are 100% beyond my comprehension.
You'd need a psychologist to help figure that out.

Sadly, the Biden administration's commitment is only to support Ukraine, "for as long as it takes" without any clear definition of just what their word "it" refers to.
I suspect that "it" does not necessarily mean victory over Vlad the Invader, but it certainly refers to substantial aid, maybe even enough aid to prevent your invasion fantasies from becoming reality.