J.D. Vance says Ukraine will have to ‘cede some territory’

1ft.io ^ | 10 Dec23 | Ramsey Touchberry

[delta7]

Sen. J.D. Vance said Sunday that U.S. officials should accept the notion that Ukraine is likely to “cede some territory” in its fight against unprovoked Russian aggression. The Ohio Republican’s remarks come as Congress weighs more aid for Ukraine, with Democrats calling for additional assistance with few if any strings attached and Republicans trying to link aid to more funding to secure the southern U.S. border. “What’s in America’s best interest is to accept Ukraine is going to have to cede some territory to the Russians and we need to bring this war to a close,” Mr. Vance, who opposes more aid, said on CNN’s “State of the Union.” “But when I think about the great human tragedy here, hundreds of thousands of Eastern Europeans innocent have been killed in this conflict, the thing that’s in our interest and in theirs is to stop the killing.” President Biden has requested another $60 billion for Ukraine as part of a $110 billion national security package that also includes money for Israel and Taiwan. “On the Ukraine question, in particular, everybody with a brain in their head knows this was always going to end in negotiation,” Mr. Vance said. “The idea that Ukraine was going to throw Russia back to the 1991 border was preposterous. Nobody actually believed it.”

What we’re saying to the president, and really to the entire world, is ‘You need to articulate what the ambition is. What is $61 billion going to accomplish that $100 billion hasn’t?’” he added.

[Gaffer]

Screw you. YOU don’t give a damn about a nation that is being invaded DAILY on its southern border by millions each year. That it’s only good chance at stemming the tide is to grudgingly agree to piss away billions in the Ukraine. THAT’s about as anti-American as one can get.

[Monterrosa-24]

You’re right. I am a Zealot. As Goldwater said, “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the face of tyranny is no virtue.”

[Firehath]

Putin betrayed

The dnc commie mob

Dems want to destroy him

Just using ukkkies

To do their dirty work

Fools

[DesertRhino]

Ignorant dickweed.

Biden, Hillary, Nuland, Austin, Milley, the CIA, the Ukrainian Nazi Party, Merkel, Trudeau, Boris Johnson, Macron, Abramovich the Spirit cooker pervert, Sean Penn, Hollywood, the entire MSM-So, comrade, how are things at the St. Petersburg troll farm these days?

Every deviant, pervert, nazi, evil prick in the US Government, Democrat, Hollywood star, and sicko on earth is on your side.

So ESAD. You are probably a Uke descendant. A lot of those landed in Pennsylvania like a swarm of locusts. Go home to Ukraine you traitor.

And take JoePa’s perverted body with you.

[Gaffer]

I expect you then to hitch up your big boy pants and get over there and do something about it. We do it your way and we’re not going to be the America you so blindly misrepresent. We won’t be, period.

[Monterrosa-24]

What are YOU doing about our southern border? Why are you on Ukraine threads? I’ve worked border issues and supported Palmer Stacy’s Immigration Control Foundation back when we tried to stem the cheap labor express.

What have YOU done about the border Mister Appeasenik?

[Gaffer]

Oh, just step on off to the curb, Chickenhawk. I am on the threads because I am a member here and I’ve not been told I cannot express my thoughts. Is that clear enough for you?

You cited Goldwater. It’s ironic that such lofty sentiment has now morphed into “if you don’t support total immersion in the UKR/RUS war, you’re an anti-American appeasenik who shouldn’t be allowed the benefit of free speech.”

[Monterrosa-24]

You always misrepresent what I said. If the border is your issue then why don’t you do something about it? How is that curtailing your free speech. It sounds like instead of the border you have an agenda against the brave and intrepid Ukrainian Army and the US border is just your smoke screen. Our open border is insane and we have to get it under control.

[Gaffer]

Why are you on Ukraine threads? [This is just another thinly veiled admonition to stay off Mom, Speedy or any other UKR thread- because you don’t like opposition and differing thoughts from yours it seems] You’re now only talking about the Border and calling it my main issue or something.

It’s one of many questions/problems I have with throwing money at Ukraine. What do I get for that? I’m an appeasenik, I support NK, Iran and any other terrorist country on earth in your mind.

Think of it like this. You’re on the side of unofficial UN, Biden and Blinken and his Administration and a NATO that has no business in the Med. On the side of many overrun European countries that have gone complete, money grubbing crazy.

[rxh4n1]

“somehow, we can’t destroy Russia in Ukraine, can we?”

What’s this “we” horseshite? Unless “we”, meaning the USA, get in it, no one is going to destroy Russia in Ukraine.

“So, you are understating both Russia’s capabilities and their ambitions, not to mention their willingness to suffer massive casualties, as demonstrated since February 2022.”

Which is it? Either they’re incompetent doofuses like many here claim, or they’re ten feet tall and going to take over Europe. It can’t be both. Also, this is not the 1930’s, that’s a bogus comparison.

[Reverend Wright]

Zeepers in July 1914:

“I stand with Serbia !”

[Reverend Wright]

This has been a NATO proxy war against Russia from the start.”

---

“Those words are pure Russian propaganda insanity.”

---

The Pentagon has just appointed a three star to go over there for even closer “supervision”

https://www.stripes.com/branches/army/2023-12-12/army-general-ukraine-eucom-12335117.html

[BroJoeK]

JonPreston: "Jimmy Dore: Putin didn't invade Ukraine to start a war. He invaded to end a war."

I don't know of Jimmy Dore, but based on your video clip, he's clearly a babbling idiot, who runs his mouth without first engaging a brain.

The fact is there was nothing legitimate about Putin's invasions of Ukraine in 2014 and 2022.
Nor is there any reason to doubt that Putin wants to rebuild the Old Soviet/Russian Empire -- he's said as much, and his propaganda machine speaks of it daily.

The physical evidence is in a long list of countries Russia has threatened and/or invaded since the 1990s, including:

1. Azerbaijan (1990–1994);[1][2]
2. Moldova (1992–present);
3. Georgia (2004–present);
4. Lithuania (2006);
5. Estonia (2006–2007);
6. Poland (2006–present);
7. Belarus (2007);
8. Ukraine (2014–present);
9. Syria (2015–present);
10. Turkey (2015–2016);
11. Kazakhstan (2021–2022);[3] and
12. Armenia (2022)[4] amongst others.[5]

Russia under Vlad the Invader is a clear and present threat to its neighbors, and evidence for it is that, all who can have tried to join NATO to them defend against him.

[BroJoeK]

JonPreston: "After Biden, now Scholz also announces war and martial law in Germany
Scholz statment:
"If the situation worsens due to the war in Ukraine, the government can declare a state of emergency in Germany and a state of war!"

It sounds to me like German Chancellor Scholz is taking Vlad the Invader seriously.
Obviously, as always, hypothetically, "if the situation worsens" anything is possible.

You disagree?

[BroJoeK]

Gaffer: "...you cite all this NATO numbers and prognostication trivia not yet happened"

My listing of Old Soviet Empire countries who have joined NATO and/or drastically increased their national defense budgets since 2014 was in response to your unjustified claim that:

"...no qualms about fear-mongering with the scenario of Russia attacking Poland and other NATO countries. "

Gaffer: " In the end, AGAIN, like all the other Zeepers here say, “your nuclear fears are irrational and insane."

You even dishonestly put those alleged words in quotes!!
And yet, I said no such thing.

Of course, I am saying that Vlad the Invader's threats of nuclear war are indeed, "irrational and insane".
Now, if you wish to discuss such threats rationally and sanely, we can do that, I'm happy to if you want, and I'd begin by asking you if there is any place on earth that you would risk the possibility of nuclear war to defend?

Gaffer: "Honestly, you just cannot STAND anyone not hopelessly committed to going down with UKR and you cannot STAND anybody disagreeing with this almighty NATO deism cult thinking.
NORTH ATLANTIC, dammit.....how hard is that to understand?"

Seriously? Americans are not "going down with Ukraine", though we are helping Ukrainians defend their own country.
But if Vlad the Invader does defeat Ukraine, then there is no way Americans can avoid the negative consequences including:

1. Feeding the CRING's (China, Russia, Iran, NoKo Group) "decline of the democratic West" narrative.

2. Reductions in deterrent values of US and allied militaries.

3. Loss of American defense leadership.

4. Accelerated slide in US economic leadership affecting the value of the US dollar, making Americans poorer.

5. Growth in powers and prestige of the Authoritarian East (the CRING).

6. Encouragement of aggressive & revanchist authoritarian dictators everywhere, threatening smaller countries from Taiwan to Israel to Guyana and many more:

   This list shows unresolved territorial disputes by continent, including:

   • 36 different disputes in Asia and the Middle East
   • 28 different disputes in Africa
   • 14 different disputes in Central and South America
   • 12 different disputes in Europe

     90 total territorial disputes around the world

   This list shows border conflicts resulting in actual fighting -- dozens just since 2000.

   All of these are kept in reasonable check by the deterrent values of America's military alliances.
   As deterrence declines, expect such conflicts to increase.

7. The end result will be a world in which the US power is less effective, and the world is therefore more inherently chaotic, violent and subject to the whims of aggressive authoritarian dictators.

Gaffer: "Lastly, despite YOUR claim that UKR is a de facto NATO member, IT CATEGORICALLY IS NOT.
That’s just wishful thinking."

Sorry, but no, it is only your wishful thinking which denies the obvious, namely that NATO and other Western countries have been treating Ukraine as if Ukraine is our ally and already strongly supported by NATO, if not a de jure member.
I think at this point eventual official NATO membership for Ukraine is all but inevitable.

Gaffer: "In end neither you or I will agree because I didn’t lose anything in UKR and I don’t believe them losing or ceding territory will result in my children fighting Russians in Europe where everybody secretly agrees not to use nuclear weapons (because it’s and insane and irrational fear)....."

Sorry, your lengthy sentence is a little hard to follow.
It seems you are trying to tell me that you don't want to send Americans to fight a nuclear war against Vlad the Invader, and you fantasize the best way to prevent that is simply to concede to Vlad whatever territories he demands, be they in Ukraine, or Moldova, or Georgia, or Estonia, or Latvia, Lithuania, Finland or Poland or Romania, Slovakia or anywhere else, right?
Have I stated your argument here correctly?

Gaffer: "What I do know is that when it does lose, there are going to be some awfully disappointed Zeepers here who will be going through some pretty serious postpartum depression."

Your words "win" and "lose" are matters of definition.
In one sense Ukraine has already won and Vlad the Invader lost when:

1. Vlad's February 2022 "special military operation" failed to overrun all of Ukraine in a matter of weeks, if not days.

2. Ukrainians liberated about half the territories Vlad had conquered in early 2022.

3. Ukrainians have prevented massive Russian "Meat Wave" assaults around Bakhmut and Avdiivka from gaining more than a few miles, at the cost of tens of thousands of Russian casualties.

4. Ukrainians have inflicted around 315,000 total casualties on invaders, which is roughly 90% of Vlad's total force in 2022 -- according to US intelligence estimates.
   Ukraine's own estimates of Russian casualties are somewhat higher.

5. Ukrainians have largely destroyed Russia's Black Sea fleet and forced its remaining ships to evacuate Crimea.

6. Ukrainians have destroyed Russian supply, transportation and command centers ever further in Russia's rear lines, resulting in ever increasingly sporadic support for Russia's front line troops.

7. Ukraine's "summer offensive" was not very successful, but I think Ukrainians now have a very clear idea of exactly what it will take to become successful in the future.

So, there's nothing I've seen to suggest that Ukrainians will ever collapse or abandon their intentions to liberate all of Ukraine's lands that Vlad conquered.
The most likely outcome I see today is similar to what we have in Korea, now 70+ years after the Korean War armistice -- still no formal peace treaty and in the mean time North Korea has become a uniquely authoritarian & paranoid caricature of some of our worst historical dictatorships.
Today, NoKo's Little Kim is a subservient client of the CCP's Xi-snake, and that is also where Vlad the Invader is taking his new Russian Empire -- it will be the CCP's vassal state.

Finally, there's this, a map of the world color coded by levels of democratic government where green & yellow = more democratic, while red and black = authoritarian dictatorships
This is the larger issue at stake in Ukraine today.

[Reverend Wright]

“NATO and other Western countries have been treating Ukraine as if Ukraine is our ally and already strongly supported by NATO, if not a de jure member.
I think at this point eventual official NATO membership for Ukraine is all but inevitable. “

---

If that turns out to be the case the Russians will likely set Ukraine’s eastern border at the Seret River.

[JonPreston]

I need at minimum a 700 words reply.

GO!

If a NATO airbase is used to attack 🇷🇺Russia, that airbase is a legitimate target. The nation hosting that NATO airbase has entered conflict and is also a legitimate target.

Does the US understand this? Does NATO? https://t.co/zWjWsqPB02 pic.twitter.com/gN8dQcKyvq— ⏳Towhee 🌏☮️ (@amborin) December 13, 2023

[JonPreston]

WATCH: Last night on @LoomerUnleashed, I reported that Zelensky @ZelenskyyUa has decided to move to Florida. It appears as if the "leader" of the Ukrainian people, President Volodymyr Zelensky, has decided to turn tail and run away from the conflict that he has stoked in his own… pic.twitter.com/ASxL128uRQ— Laura Loomer (@LauraLoomer) December 13, 2023

[BroJoeK]

Gaffer to Monterrosa-24: "You’re now only talking about the Border and calling it my main issue or something.
It’s one of many questions/problems I have with throwing money at Ukraine"

Right, clearly our Southern Border is Gaffer's excuse, not the real reason for opposing US aid to Ukraine.
Unlike, Speaker Johnson, who intends to use Ukraine aid to help improve our Southern Border, Gaffer doesn't really care what happens with our border, he will still oppose Ukraine aid, I'm near certain of that.

What exactly Gaffer has against Ukraine, I can't quite fathom -- when did suddenly Russia become our friend, to be defended even when they behave atrociously?
I don't get that.

Gaffer to Monterrosa-24: "What do I get for that?
I’m an appeasenik, I support NK, Iran and any other terrorist country on earth in your mind."

Sadly, when evil is on the march, there is no way to remain "neutral" since as Edmund Burke long ago remarked,

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

If you refuse to oppose evil, then you are effectively on the side of evil, whether you wish it or not.

Gaffer to Monterrosa-24: "Think of it like this.
You’re on the side of unofficial UN, Biden and Blinken and his Administration and a NATO that has no business in the Med.
On the side of many overrun European countries that have gone complete, money grubbing crazy."

Sadly, just as in WWII, when we had to ally with some monsters (i.e., Stalin) in order to defeat even bigger monsters, today we have to make allies where we can find them, even if they are not all 100% savory.

But, where in the world did this come from: "a NATO that has no business in the Med."??
Do you mean the Mediterranean Sea? Seriously?

And what in the world does this mean: "many overrun European countries that have gone complete, money grubbing crazy"

Who was "overrun" and who has become "money grubbing crazy"?

Who even thinks like that while claiming to be an American conservative?

[BroJoeK]

DesertRhino: "Ignorant dickweed."

Oh? Tell us, when did you first notice that you'd turned into a babbling idiot?

DesertRhino: "Biden, Hillary, Nuland, Austin, Milley, the CIA, the Ukrainian Nazi Party, Merkel, Trudeau, Boris Johnson, Macron, Abramovich the Spirit cooker pervert, Sean Penn, Hollywood, the entire MSM-So, comrade, how are things at the St. Petersburg troll farm these days?"

That St. Petersburg, Russia, troll farm is your office of cubicles, FRiend, so look around at your fellows there and tell us what you see.

DesertRhino: "Every deviant, pervert, nazi, evil prick in the US Government, Democrat, Hollywood star, and sicko on earth is on your side."

Perhaps, but not a single one of them has illegally invaded Ukraine, attacking civilian & military targets indiscriminately, killing hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and Russians alike.

The total numbers are unknown today, but easily half a million dead and seriously wounded total for both sides combined.

And faced with such monstrous evil, you are going to turn and wage war against an alleged "Spirit cooker pervert"?
Seriously?

How did your brain get so scrambled?

DesertRhino: "So ESAD. [WTF??]
You are probably a Uke descendant.
A lot of those landed in Pennsylvania like a swarm of locusts.
Go home to Ukraine you traitor."

Obviously, you yourself are perverted and clueless as to reality, inventing fantasies when you don't know the real facts.

And how could a supporter of Ukraine's freedom & independence suddenly become a "traitor" to American values of freedom & independence?

Also, you say, "like a swarm of locusts"?? Seriously, what kind of crazy-talk is that?