Russian Tanks Massing Near Ukraine Sport Mods Against Drones, Javelin Missiles

Forbes ^ | Nov 29, 2021 | Sebastien Roblin

[tlozo]

As Russian mechanized forces massing near Ukraine raise fears of an invasion this winter, tank watchers on social media have identified more and more Russian tanks sporting unsubtle field modifications seemingly aimed at fending off Ukraine’s newest weapons: U.S.-supplied Javelin anti-tank guided missiles and TB2 Bayraktar drones supplied by Turkey. Both pose a deadly threat to the top armor of armored vehicles, where protection is drastically weaker... Russia’s military is visibly experimenting with at least two new methods to protect against top-attacking menaces.

The first is to fit an umbrella of slatted armor on top of the tank. Slat armor is intended to disable or misdirect the fuse of the chemical-energy HEAT munitions in an anti-tank missile, causing it to unleash its jet of armor-piercing molten metal at an ineffectual angle and/or distance vis-a-vis the tank’s turret... These modifications, which have been seen on Russia’s workhorse T-72B and T-72B3 tanks, are non-standardized, suggesting experiments implemented in the field to address a possible operational contingency, rather than a factory-issued perfected solution...

Furthermore, according to munitions expert Neil Gibson, the molten jet projected by a Javelin’s warhead is likely long enough and a tank’s top armor thin enough that the cage armor would provide insufficient protection even if its triggers the main warhead from 0.5 to 1.5 meters away.

[StAnDeliver]

Of note, we are in the 48-hour period ("Dec. 1-Dec. 2") that Zelensky insisted would produce a coup attempt against him.

[Spktyr]

Perhaps, perhaps not. Keep in mind that the Chinese have spent the last decade learning logistics from *us* through our industry. Also keep in mind that they’re supporting combat deployments all around the globe these days just fine, and Taiwan isn’t all that far off the mainland...

[Spktyr]

Nope. They learned it well enough to want to hide what they’re saying from the elderly. :P

[GingisK]

Its true, though: Ukrainian girls are smoking hot.

[Spktyr]

That part, yes, that is absolutely true. :D

[billakay]

I believe that there is a real risk of a Ukrainian first strike. NATO will carry water for them and they will blame the Russians somehow (no one remembers that Georgia shot first back in '08).

The Ukrainian government have backed themselves into a corner and don't have enough gas/other fuel to get through the winter. They are looking at an uprising in the worse case or being tossed out of power in the best case.

[Levy78]

Sounds like you’ve never spent time in Kiev. One of the largest Neo-Nazi scenes in Europe, maybe even larger than Poland’s

[Vaden]

Then why does Russia protest vehemently against the sale of Javelin missiles to anyone?? Your claims of Russian superiority are belied by Russia’s actual actions.

Some Americans just can’t let go of the myth that Russia is superior to us.

[Vaden]

Jakub Janovsky’s reply did not confirm your claims. Indeed, your claims are further contradicted by this article (which specifically mentions Janovsky’s video footage). Where’s your proof that Russian tanks are impenetrable?

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/russian-tanks-got-taste-us-tow-missiles-syria-190381

[tlozo]

Sounds like you’ve never spent time in Kiev. One of the largest Neo-Nazi scenes in Europe, maybe even larger than Poland’s

According to who? In the last parliamentary elections ALL the ultra right parties in Ukraine got just 2% of the vote.

"Other national-radical parties failed to win seats in the Verkhovna Rada. Therefore, the election results clearly demonstrate the decline of Ukraine's right-wing political forces. Indeed, the far right’s political prospects, which are gradually becoming clearer following the parliamentary elections, are hardly impressive. In a post-election analysis, Right Sector leader Andrii Tarasenko lamented the situation and said that only some citizens should vote."

https://reportingradicalism.org/en/thematic-analyses/the-far-right-and-the-2019-parliamentary-election

[Vaden]

Mostly they were TOW’s. And several of them knocked tanks out or at least turned them back. Very few Javelin’s were spotted there.

[tlozo]

Mostly they were TOW’s. And several of them knocked tanks out or at least turned them back. Very few Javelin’s were spotted there.

Thought so. They are the TOW-2A variant, which is not capable of top-down attack.

"Almost all TOW missiles that Syrian rebels obtained were TOW-2A variant"

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/05/04/seven-years-war-documenting-syrian-rebel-use-anti-tank-guided-missiles/

[Spktyr]

Didn’t say they were impenetrable, where did you get that?

[Spktyr]

Among other reasons, because anything that *doesn’t* have the full-up Arena APS *is* vulnerable to Javelin? They have a lot of APCs/IFVs and support/logistics vehicles that Javelin will kill just *fine*.

[Vaden]

You directly stated that Javelin’s were used against Russian tanks to “little effect” in post #15.

The sources I’ve seen give no indication of that. Janovsky pretty much says the opposite. He says the Syrian regime was “lucky” they didn’t get hold of Javelin’s due to thier ability to destroy from above. the sources also state that Russia’s defense mechanisms remain vulnerble to above attacks and cannot fire upward.

Can you provide a source that Javelin’s were ineffective?

[Vaden]

Well yes, I understand that but the evidence shows that Russia’s tanks ARE vulnerable to it also. Including the vaunted T-90’s. The T-14 still remains a protoype and is not in actual production or combat.

I have found National Interest very fair about this type of coverage. When something has a poor track record (like the Patriot missile system, etc.) they are more than critical of it.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/russia-thought-its-tanks-were-unstoppable-and-then-syria-happened-94481?page=0%2C1

[Spktyr]

Unfortunately, a lot of the videos and foreign media sources that documented it have gone down the memory hole. Often due to YouTube's puritanical purge of any violent coverage not posted by their US media allies. There were multiple rebel videos of Javelins being fired and getting Arena'd prior to impact.

The Arena system can fire upwards in a limited arc from the launcher station. A true top down (as in perpendicular to the surface) attack will get through on any Arena system... but Javelin doesn't *have* a true perpendicular attack. From US Army FM 3-22.37 "JAVELIN MEDIUM ANTIARMOR WEAPON SYSTEM", this is the 'top down' attack profile of a Javelin:

Note that the Jav is noted to come in at about a 45-odd degree angle. Arena 1 and 2 is generally specced as being able to only protect to +15 degrees above the launcher with Arena 3 being quoted as being +20 or more, so a solo tank with Arena is going to be hard pressed to protect itself against a turret-top targeted Javelin - but Arena does have a "buddy protect" mode where a tank in a formation with a better angle can fire and blast a top down attack missile attacking a neighbor tank - so the weakness of the older Arena systems is often mitigated in the field. (This was noted by the South Koreans who were looking to buy an APS for their tanks and were trialing Arena among other systems - they decided their use case required a solo tank be able to defend itself against top down and bought another system.) To be fair, Syria was actually pretty much ideal for this coverage as there was often more than enough room and little enough buildup that Arena-equipped tanks often had more than enough room to employ 'scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' systems like this. I will cheerfully concede that this is likely to not be the case in the more urbanized Ukraine. One thing of note is that Arena is heavy and prior to Arena 3 (in 2013), could *not* be installed on a vehicle that did not sport heavy armor due to how it worked. None of the Arena systems are infantry-safe either. So until recently, only their MBTs were Javelin resistant and even now the vast supermajority of their non-MBT armor is hideously vulnerable to a Javelin.

[Vaden]

OK. I truly get where you are coming from. I will debate it no further. I’m far from a military “expert” but I am a fan of military equipment and history and know much more than the average civilian. My family has an extensive military memberhship history also.

All I know is what I’ve read. Janovsky reported seeing Russia’s tanks destroyed by BOTH TOW and Javelin missiles. He does say that some didn’t quite do the job.

As for me, I don’t think any weapon is always foolproof. That clearly includes our tanks and missile “defenses” too. Russia still possesses a lot of potentially deadly weapons that can certainly kill.

One thing is very clear though, Russia frightened of Javelin as much as the West is of Kornet.

Good night. Thanks for the interesting debate. I could go all night but won’t. LOL

[Vaden]

Sorry that first one had a typo.

OK. I truly get where you are coming from. I will debate it no further. I’m far from a military “expert” but I am a fan of military equipment and history and know much more than the average civilian. My family has an extensive military memberhship history also.

All I know is what I’ve read. Janovsky reported seeing Russia’s tanks destroyed by BOTH TOW and Javelin missiles. He does say that some didn’t quite do the job.

As for me, I don’t think any weapon is always foolproof. That clearly includes our tanks and missile “defenses” too. Russia still possesses a lot of potentially deadly weapons that can certainly kill.

One thing is very clear though, Russia is frightened of Javelin as much as the West is of Kornet.

Good night. Thanks for the interesting debate. I could go all night but won’t. LOL

[Tunehead54]

Testing ... either way you have to click on the new YouTube tab.

Back to the drawing board or Sandbox. Sigh.

39 second Javelin Anti-tank test - for those that never read the articles ...

Click then hit the play button, then close YouTube tab after play. I count 13 seconds from fire to target.

Fire?