Posted on 08/23/2017 7:05:21 AM PDT by beebuster2000
Can a Freeper with experience "weigh" in please?
I am beginning to think the common problem in the recent USN accidents is a totally calcified chain of command where no one has the authority to take action in a moment of crisis. someone knows there is a problem but has to ask someone who has to ask someone for permission to act.
Isn't there ONE OFFICER on deck with the total and absolute responsibility and authority to alter course in real time to avoid collisions? Or is there no one person until way up the chain who can make a decision ?
What was that old saying? "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, the third time it’s enemy action."
This sort of thing has happened four times now, and in a relatively short time period.
You mean the Relieved from Command ceremony. Kind of like Chuck Connors getting his buttons torn off in “Branded”?
How in the h*** did you have a DIW target on radar 15 miles out and still manage to not avoid it?
Whatever became of lookouts with binoculars?
What if the Captain has issued strict orders that no change in course is to take place without his approval. In other words, “Wake me up and you’d better have a damn good reason for doing so.”
“Those towing lines were defective!”
We were square underneath the Golden Gate and had no room to maneuver, stopping distance for a tender is about 1000 yards.
His piece of crap hit the bow and scraped down the starboard side as we passed.
He was hanging on to his capsized sailboat, I watched while standing right above him leaning on the rail.
Laughed my butt off when I saw it sink in our prop wash aft of us.
35 years ago, I was the Special Sea and Anchor Helmsman on a tin can headed into Mayport. My orders were to steer a specific heading. The current was pushing us to starboard and I had to use left hard rudder to maintain the course, but we were headed straight for the jetty.
I was about to tell the OOD the helm was unresponsive when he ordered me to “Mind my helm”. The Captain looked at the Rudder Angle Indicator on the bridge, saw that the rudder was hard left and took command from the OOD and ordered Full Emergency Reverse on the port engine.
Suffice to say the OOD was not experienced in these matters.
good post, thanks, it is always the human factor, isn’t it?
Then he's an idiot. But even generally, "no change in course" won't be considered to apply to dodging obstacles, and then resuming initial course/speed. That is a common occurrence because fishing boats, etc., pop up all the time.
I cannot imagine -- outside of a movie or actual insanity a captain issuing specific orders barring the OOD from taking action to avoid a collision while he's asleep. And if he did, the OOD's proper response is to avoid the collision anyway, accept the consequences, and then request Admiral's Mast if necessary.
On a typical navel vessel their are 6 to 10 people ( McCain had 12) performing the same task and reporting up the chain to a commander who makes decisions to maneuver down through the chain. What could possibly go wrong?
I operated many types of oilfield support vessels in all weather and high traffic areas. You must have a comprehensive situational awareness and be able to react to unusual situations in seconds. My opinion is that reaction time and judgement is compromised through the military mind set. When seconds count you cannot wait for someone to come on the bridge, acquire situational awareness and make a judgement call to tell a group of sailors to turn the helm and reverse one or more throttles. That sets up a cluster that might be to late anyway.
Exactly correct. The OOD can give orders to maneuver the ship as needed for safety, regardless of the Navigation Officer's planned track. The CO or XO can relieve the OOD for any reason or without reason and assume control. The Navigator can relieve the OOD for safety of navigation. If a Captain ever gave orders that limited the OOD's ability to maneuver the ship in an emergency, that Captain would be relieved of his command - I have never heard of a Captain giving that kind of stupid orders.
I have spent many watches as OOD, and I have never been afraid to call my Captain. I only once had a Captain who was reluctant to come when called, and he responded immediately when I insisted. When he said I could handle a situation without him and I answered, "no, Sir, I cannot", that was all it took.
Wow Gator that is a great audio find. I listened twice and I am convinced it was snafu fubar with a bunch of incompetent kids. I fear that the military has expended so much energy on cultural crap that they dont know how to do anything else including killing bad guy and driving a boat.This has now reached a crises in the Navy but I assure you that it is systemic in the other Services but is masked by screens from being exposed. How many pregnan4 women are on those 5 seperate billion dollar ships that we have had running into things. Trump needs to clean house in the Joint chiefs and get some killers in there quick before North Korea attacks .
When ever the Commanding Officer is off the bridge the Offucer of the Deck is responsible for the safe navigation of the vessel.
How does a Navy destroyer get hit in the port aft by a partially loaded tanker going 9.2 knots?
Granted it was a typical morning rush hour into Singapore. But somehow the McCain got itself in the way of the Alnic MC, got hit, and 10 sailors are likely dead.
Check out the tracking video of the Alnic and others. It is surprising there were not other accidents dodging the disabled McCain and Alnic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlrA36GzHNs
I believe the speed limit in the Traffic Separation Zone is 12 knots and the collision happened just after the Alnic entered the zone. Was the McCain speeding and then hit the brakes as it entered the Separation Zone?
Based on the fact that our 7th Fleet destroyers seem to be under the command of the Keystone Kops, I would wager that the answer to your question is a resounding "no."
“Duh ... that is why the skipper was relieved”
First, they must fire all of Obamas politically correct bootlicking admirals and generals.
But that's not how it is supposed to work. The OOD is always on the deck already, and is supposed to have situational awareness at all times. And the size of some of those ships, coupled with the complexity of some of the propulsion systems, would make it impossible for a single person to maintain adequate 360 degree visibility, much less operate all the radios, helm, etc..
What works on a small commercial vessel that doesn't have military responsibility doesn't work on military vessels. These type of collisions are extraordinarily rare -- this recent flurry is a huge anomaly that doesn't mean that the entire method of commanding Naval vessels (not just in our Navy but in all of them) is flawed.
Commercial ships are not necessarily small. Many are 3 to 4 times the size of the warship in question. When you operate a 260 foot tow/supply vessel with a rig or work barge 1200 feet behind with 100's of lives on it certainly requires attention. A military ship has a much larger crew in order to fight the ship. Something I have never had to do. I have been able to safely operate complex vessels in all weather and traffic conditions for many years with much smaller crews. Much different mind set.
Not only are the commercial vessels much bigger than the Fitzgerald and the McCain, but the bridge is nearly 1000 feet behind the bow, whereas the destroyer bridge is maybe 100 feet behind the bow.
“Iceberg dead ahead! Turn! Turn!
“Ah.. which way?”
BAM! CRUNCH!
Been happening for a long time. The lookout on the Titanic did not have binoculars as they were stowed away and the guy with the key was on shore for that trip. The captain meanwhile said full speed at night while in an area of icebergs. Kinda like the Italian captain who wanted to show off for people on shore and ended up grounding his ship and abandoning it afterward.
Question of the Day...
When I was in VietNam we had to get approval from McNamara before things that would seem to most people to be at the E5 level of decision making.
One thing the convinced me to favor small government is that big government does not work very well ... with the military being a prime example.
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