Posted on 05/05/2016 6:39:38 AM PDT by richardtavor
As this dystopian election campaign has unfolded, my mind keeps being tugged by a passage in Plato’s Republic. It has unsettled — even surprised — me from the moment I first read it in graduate school. The passage is from the part of the dialogue where Socrates and his friends are talking about the nature of different political systems, how they change over time, and how one can slowly evolve into another. And Socrates seemed pretty clear on one sobering point: that “tyranny is probably established out of no other regime than democracy.” What did Plato mean by that? Democracy, for him, I discovered, was a political system of maximal freedom and equality, where every lifestyle is allowed and public offices are filled by a lottery. And the longer a democracy lasted, Plato argued, the more democratic it would become. Its freedoms would multiply; its equality spread. Deference to any sort of authority would wither; tolerance of any kind of inequality would come under intense threat; and multiculturalism and sexual freedom would create a city or a country like “a many-colored cloak decorated in all hues.”
This rainbow-flag polity, Plato argues, is, for many people, the fairest of regimes. The freedom in that democracy has to be experienced to be believed — with shame and privilege in particular emerging over time as anathema. But it is inherently unstable. As the authority of elites fades, as Establishment values cede to popular ones, views and identities can become so magnificently diverse as to be mutually uncomprehending. And when all the barriers to equality, formal and informal, have been removed; when everyone is equal; when elites are despised and full license is established to do “whatever one wants,” you arrive at what might be called late-stage democracy. There is no kowtowing to authority here, let alone to political experience or expertise.
DU? Really?
I've got to disagree w/that even though I did find the passions of the Trump vs Cruz war disheartening. Hopefully we can put all of that behind us and unite once again.
FR is perhaps the most civil board on the internet and the singular reason for that is Jim Robinson.
What is Interesting is from where, this discourse on the construction of Republicanism originates , of all places, the NY Post.
What is Interesting is from where, this discourse on the construction of Republicanism originates , of all places, the NY News.
I remember in my Civics class back in the 50’s the teacher stating a benevolent dictatorship was the purest form of government. And so it would be. The problem being the benevolent dictator dies and you have to rely on what you get next. I think that is what is happening here to some extent...our founding fathers were the benevolent dictators granting us a republic, but as Franklin said to some woman who asked, paraphrasing here, “it’s only good for as long as you can keep it”.
George Washington - made it abundantly clear that he was NOT a benevolent dictator by voluntarily stepping down and giving up his power... knowing ‘the people’ would replace him with their new choice.
What made the United State unique and powerful was our trust in the 'invisible hand' - not only in capitalism but in our political system. "The people" really do make better choice (en masse) than elites... or bureaucratic committees. It's just a strange reality.
Freedom is good. License is not.
Our end is due to losing our morality. That morality lead people to behave, to make sound decisions, and not to tolerate immorality and corrupt leaders. Today “anything goes”, and it is getting worse over time.
I am so greatful to have been born decades ago and not born today on the cusp of socialist totalitarian oppression. I grieve for todays children.
It took our Framers only eleven years (1776-1787) to figure out that excessively democratic forms of government were dangerous to liberty.
OTOH, we’ve groaned under far too much of the democratic element since 1913, yet most think the answer to our problems is more democracy!
The Constitution was designed to implement the tenets of the Declaration. It did.
A very long ‘think piece’ by a gifted intellectual. I doubt many of the Yahoos among us will read it all, or comprehend it as a very good critique on American cultural and political development in the years since WWII.
By the way, lest I be flamed without reason, I intend to vote for Trump with my last vote as a protest against the Left and all it stands for. In the final analysis I prefer the Demagogue of the Right to the Comintern Chairwoman of the Left.
No matter who wins this election, America is about to change forever from the country I’ve known and worked for all my life.
Direct Democracy, two Wolves and one Sheep deciding what’s for Dinner.
I notice that when the elites see the vast majority of Americans are actively opposing them, we are solemnly warned about democracy. I see a crowd of 100 sheep and 3 wolves. The wolves (with big teeth) make all the decisions about where to graze, how to live, and pretend to listen to the sheep. But when the sheep look for new leaders, the pompous wolves remind them that their voice must never be listened to or it will be a democracy.
They even give hints that a change might be met with wolf violence against the sheep to restore order.
Oligarchs love the other sheep wolf and dinner story.
For that to be instructive here, our “elites” need to respect the Republic. They don’t.
Unfortunately, I believe America has already changed. I held out hope that there was time left, but I fear that we are already being judged. The King of Nineveh realized in time God’s message of repentance. There have been many modern day Jonas - we have ignored them all. I pray that anyone on this forum that can see the shortness of the hour start preparing for the times that will come..
I agree with you friend. I too have seen much change in my nearly seven decades on this earth. The fact that you recognize evil means that you will pass that on and how to deal with it to the next generation. They don’t realize yet how much they will need the guide posts that they were given.
Most people mistakenly believe that Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed because of homosexuality. That was a small part of it. They were destroyed because they destroyed the justice System established by God and replaced it with their own understanding. Sounds like today doesn’t it.
Many of the comments could have been posted on DU. Passions ran so high that reason was left at the door. I attempted to pass on my concerns to Jim Robinson and he did try to moderate as much as he could. He can do only so much though, as the integrity of the individual posters must be the foundation of this particular forum. I have never pled for or stated who my candidate will be, as that is reserved for the day of the election. However, Jim must eliminate the morons that get pleasure from bullying dissenters. Otherwise, as I suggested, it will degrade into DU. That is when I will lose interest in his forum as I have better things to do and better places for information.
Sometimes you have to search hard for the truth and recognize it when you see it. The article caught my eye because it compared Plato’so writings to modern times.
Not to defend the guy, but he's probably thinking of Europe (the EU, Britain, Scandinavia), rather than the rest of the world.
Anyway, here's some of the feedback.
Andrew Sullivan's American Tyranny Thesis Is Off the Mark
Althouse: Andrew Sullivan has a point but it's too hard to see.
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