Posted on 01/03/2016 9:31:09 AM PST by Lazamataz
In the last day or so, a very dangerous situation has emerged in Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, near the town of Burns, Oregon. Ammon Bundy and about a dozen men, armed with firearms, have occupied a closed Federal building on that property. The local Sheriff has backed down, and there are rumors of Special Response Teams staging nearby.
This building is a smallish, very isolated building in the middle of a large National Refuge. Someone posted on a thread under a Guardian news article about this, "I'm in Oregon. These guys took over a headquarters building but it's kinda like an old brick house your grandma would live in and it's at least 50 miles from nowhere. You guys have a good time."
I do not intend to explore the minutia behind the case. That is a matter for courts. I do intend to explore the responses to this that we should take, and those we should not take.
I had a chance to hear a CNN interview with Ammon Bundy. At best, his narrative can only be described as incoherent. The CNN host, remarkably constrained in his questioning, asked what the government could do to unravel this. After a lot of "um's" and "uh's", the best Ammon could come up with was, "The government needs to start following the Constitution." The host wanted a more definitive answer, and Bundy had nothing. Simply put, this guy is the perfect foil for a police-state government move.
We all agree. The Federal government does need to start following the Constitution. This is a fight for the court system, and if there is no relief there -- AND it happens to more than a handful of us -- THEN other more drastic measures can be considered. The key is the universality of violation. The cases of Waco, Ruby Ridge, the Bundy Ranch -- while all eregious -- are spread apart by years and have happened to the tiniest percentage of people. The proper response to these actions are judicial in nature. Take these things all the way up to the Supreme Court. These venues NEED to be fully-explored, first.
If, however, this sort of government abuse begins to happen in greater and greater numbers, there comes a time when there is a tipping point. When OTrauma just starts going full-Stalin, we must react, or die on our knees.
I don't think we are there yet, notice how delicately he's treading on his gun control Executive Order tomorrow. It's basically a tiny measure -- purported to be background checks if the seller sells 25 guns a year -- and he had his people research it for months before deciding to proceed.
There comes a time he won't be so careful or delicate. That's when we know the balloon went up. Either that, or if we ever awake to find that the electric or communications grid is down. Those are proper signs that something srastic must be undertaken.
If the Feds undertake an attacking action, and lose anyone, this will be the chance for OTrauma to actually impose some Stalinist directives. Anything from a declaration of a National Emergency to martial law could be reasonably taken, and the masses of people would go right along with it. See, the masses of people need to feel the boot before they will join. There must be more support by the general population before we can move. There are also several ways to conduct ourselves. One is more direct action, but another seems to be effective as well. Look at Czechoslovakia for how a successful 'velvet revolution' can occur, or how the 'Arab Spring' caused (admittedly harmful, in this instance) change. Anything where we are the vast minority, and a Fed-supportive populace is the vast majority, is simply a death sentence for more of our liberties, and perhaps even a death sentence for we who believe in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
This particular set of actions by Ammon Bundy are just unwise. One actually wonders if he wasn't emboldened or encouraged to act recklessly by agents of the administration, embedded in his group.
I call upon Ammon Bundy to stand down, and work the court system -- all the way up to SCOTUS -- at this time. I plead for all patriotic-minded individuals to stay away from this situation.
Great. Now the next time a white cop shoots a black teenager, I'm going to be wondering why the Forest Service is involved...
Too many acronyms. Too few letters.
bttt
Well said
After Clive the Feds are itching for some payback.
L
Excellent advice.
It’s ironic that all they want to do is go home and be left alone, free from government aggression.
Wasn’t drunk. Just havin’ fun.
I have a crazy idea, instead of special response teams, how about using two men in sportcoats and boots to just walk up to the front door?
Discuss their concerns, thank them and leave.
Come back out and announce that its morally wrong to send someone to prison for anything, much less an accidental grassfire, and then after they complete their sentence and get released, to decide to send them back for MORE prison.
I wouldn’t do that to a bank robber.
As I’m sure you will agree........... they never were or will be.
Merry Sunday my friend.
I almost think these Bundys are agents of the Left playing their role to make all conservatives look like nutcases, just like the Westboro Baptist Church folks.
We're going to have t-shirt made up...
Sorry, but you should be addressing Godzilla. I defended the ranchers because I consider this attempt to re-incarcerate them as double jeopardy. Please read again the conversation and you will see you should be addressing Godzilla, not me.
If this double imprisonment on the same case is allowed to stand, what happens about all the releases for fouled up paperwork in REAL CRIMINAL cases?
Bingo.....
Wouldn’t this fall under double jeopardy or something?
You have described today’s “sunshine patriots” to a tea. Bravo.
If the Hammonds were just backburning and it got out of control, yes.
But thats not what they were accused and convicted of. They were charged with arson to destroy evidence of illegal deer poaching on Federal property. The Gvt had witnesses, including one of Hammond’s relatives, testify and provide evidence to support it’s case. In a court of law, the Gvt won.
Now thats not said to diminish the very real issues of land use and double jeopardy. I’m just pointing out that this matter is very convoluted. Throw in that the Hammonds have asked the “militia” to back off, and it becomes apparent that this isn’t an issue for anyone to rashly throw themselves into.
Thanks Baynative
“Anything where we are the vast minority, and a Fed-supportive populace is the vast majority,...”
As was the case in 1776.
1/3rd of the popluation felt strongly enough to take action on their convictions.
The rest were loyalsists or had no conviction one way or the other.
As I remember, after the BLM retreated at Bundy Ranch, an angry Senator Reid stated something like ‘this ain’t over yet.’ Since then though, very little has happened to the Bundys.
Now Ammon Bundy is doing some really stupid stuff that is almost guaranteed to benefit the government position. I have to wonder if Ammon (and perhaps the rest of the family) has been “turned” by the threat of further repression for the rest of the family. It certainly isn’t a new tactic for tyrannous regimes and who better to deliver the threat than the “trusted” friend, Mr. Payne?
I could be totally wrong - or not. It would help if we knew who was paying their expenses, though.
Anyone who has had to deal with the BLM over the past few decades has seen the increasing hostility toward private property, and the increase in government tactics to encroach upon the ability of private property owners to use their resources and be stewards of their own land to the point that the land can no longer pay for itself, much less be a source of ongoing revenue for the owners.
Use of Federally owned land is also greeted with hostility, and the hoops to jump through are many and complex.
Having read the list of events and taking that at face value, I agree that injustice has been served upon these people.
I can identify with those who have been stripped of their ability to use their own resources by the Government, for the cause of "wildlife", which only exists because landowners looked out for it before the government was involved.
Now for the downside.
Most of America won't 'get it'.
They will not understand pasture land, water rights, grazing rights, the need to access all parts of the ranch, the implications of not being allowed to have a firearm despite your stock in trade being essentially predator bait for the first few months of its life.
Most of America has been programmed with 'This Land is Your Land' mentality, that for reasons ranging from crony land-grabs to dirt worship, there are those in the general population and Government who revile private property, the owners, and will do all in their power to force them off their land--always for the "good" of some critter or the "environment" or whatever, disregarding that keeping land continuously agriculturally productive for a hundred or more years requires a knowledge of the land in question and good farming/ranching practices.
Apartment dwellers aren't likely to understand, nor are those who live in metro areas who only notice wildlife at the zoo, on vacation, or on TV.
Far too few Americans will understand the issue, and too few will care enough to take umbrage against a government that already owns a third of the land in the US, and well over half west of the Mississippi River--and growing.
To them a large landholding is enough yard to need a riding mower, and the need for land for grazing or water access is an issue they wont' comprehend.
When casus belli exists, it will be a cause that even the fragmented and special interest of our short attention span society understands universally. Anything less will only lead to greater repression, not reform.
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