Oldest Koran ‘Destabilises’ Islamic History, Scientists Say It Pre-dates Mohammed

Breitbart ^ | August 31, 2015 | by Nick Hallett

[rdl6989]

Fragments of an early Koran found in a Birmingham library may rewrite Islamic history after carbon dating revealed they could be older than Mohammed.

[rdl6989]

I’m afraid you’re right.

[fella]

Fable 112 - The Chariot of Hermes and the Arabs

One day, Hermes drove across the entire Earth a chariot filled with lies, villainy and fraud. And he distributed a small portion of
his cargo in each country he visited. But when he arrived in the country of the Arabs, the chariot suddenly broke down. The Arabs
believed he was carrying a precious cargo and so they stole the contents of his chariot. Hermes was then unable to carry on into
the countries of other peoples.
More than all other people the Arabs are liars and cheats. Indeed, there is not even a word for ‘truth’ in their language.

(This is from Aesop who lived long before islam, but he knew the nature of the Arabs they just made a religion to mirror their values)

[Phlap]

And Koran spelled backwards is Bible. Get off the dope.

[RightOnTheBorder]

So on top of the destruction, rape, murder, pedophilia, deceit, and idol worship, we can now ad plagiarist to Mohammed’s list of accomplishments?

[bunkerhill7]

Oldest Mohammed Cartoon ‘Destabilises’ Islamic History, Scientists Say It Pre-dates Mohammed

there fixed it

[I want the USA back]

For the first time the liberals are going to have a problem with carbon dating.

[Another Post-American]

On the contrary, liberals disbelieve carbon dating more than they believe it. It’s biblical creationists who accept all the data (adjusting for differential C-14 dilution before the biomass burial of the Flood), while they reject much of it. Just check out the results on carbon-dating diamonds, coal, dinosaur remains, surveys of all carbon-dating (anything older than ~100Kya should be free of C-14; in practice everything has measurable C-14) and so forth.

[SIRTRIS]

>>>Impossible! “There is no God but Allah, and Muhummad is his messenger!”

Plausible reality, There is no idol but Mohammad and allah is his messenger.. corrected!

[SoFloFreeper]

are they suggesting that the koran was plagiarized? No wonder Joe Biden says the Taliban aren’t “our enemy per se”.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks rdl6989.

• How The Islamic World Was Forged: An Exercise In Common Sense
• Israeli Archaeologists Discover 3,000-Year-Old Jar With Inscription of Name From the Bible
• The black stone of Elagabal {maybe now of allah?}
• ISIS Destruction of Ancient Sites Hits Mostly Muslim Targets

[SunkenCiv]

• Did Muhammad Ever Really Live? by Perdogg -- "A number of Islamic associations have put a quick end to their collaboration with a professor -- and trainer of people who are supposed to teach Islam in German high schools -- who has expressed his doubt that Muhammad ever lived. Islam scholar Michael Marx spoke with SPIEGEL ONLINE about what lies behind the debate and the historical person of the Prophet." [2008]
• Zul-Qarnain - What is the argument?by Jochen Katz (not on FR) -- [snip]I have never claimed that Zul-Qarnain *is* the historical Alexander the Great. I don't know why your move to agree with me in this is considered a rebuttal... The argument is then that the Qur'anic story is clearly taken from the legends about Alexander. There are many many details of the Qur'an account which are nearly verbatim to be found in the Alexander legends. Conclusion: Zul-Qarnain clearly is the Alexander the Great of the legend stories. And because the Qur'an presents the material from the legends as if this were history, it shows that Muhammad could not distinguish between legends and history when he incorporated this material in the Qur'an. This is evidence that the Qur'an is not of divine origin.[/snip]

[RoosterRedux]

Not sure what conclusions could be drawn from this

Did Mohammed plagiarize the Koran from someone else?

Or is the carbon dating not accurate enough to produce a clear date?

Or did God lay manipulate Satan/Allah so as to lay the groundwork to damage Mohammed and islam?

[SuzyQue]

Yes, but allah is not God.

[SuzyQue]

Islam is a pirate and petty thief religion.

[madison10]

Yet he’s still President of the United States of America. :|

[PA Engineer]

Scientist give a RANGE of dates. Of which historians place Mohammad entire life within that range. Entirely possible for both conditions to be true.

That may be true, however it is a spurious argument in regards to the negation of Islamic oral tradition claims.

[NYer]

“This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran’s genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven.

“This would radically alter the edifice of Islamic tradition and the history of the rise of Islam in late Near Eastern antiquity would have to be completely revised, somehow accounting for another book of scripture coming into existence 50 to 100 years before, and then also explaining how this was co-opted into what became the entity of Islam by around AD700.”

Posted the following article to FR, back in July 2004. It is a worthy read and bears out this discovery. From the link:

ROMA - That Aramaic was the lingua franca of a vast area of the ancient Middle East is a notion that is by now amply noted by a vast public, thanks to Mel Gibson´s film "The Passion of the Christ," which everyone watches in that language.

But that Syro-Aramaic was also the root of the Koran, and of the Koran of a primitive Christian system, is a more specialized notion, an almost clandestine one. And it´s more than a little dangerous. The author of the most important book on the subject - a German professor of ancient Semitic and Arabic languages - preferred, out of prudence, to write under the pseudonym of Christoph Luxenberg. A few years ago, one of his colleagues at the University of Nablus in Palestine, Suliman Bashear, was thrown out of the window by his scandalized Muslim students.

In the Europe of the 16th and 17th centuries, mangled by the wars of religion, scholars of the Bible also used to keep a safe distance with pseudonyms. But if, now, the ones doing so are the scholars of the Koran, this is a sign that, for the Muslim holy book as well, the era of historical, linguistic, and philological re-readings has begun.

This is a promising beginning for many reasons. Gerd-Rüdiger Puin, a professor at Saarland University in Germany and another Koran scholar on the philological level, maintains that this type of approach to Islam´s holy book can help to defeat its fundamentalist and Manichean readings, and to bring into a better light its ties with Judaism and Christianity.

The book by "Christoph Luxenberg" came out in 2000 in Germany with the title "Die Syro-Aramäische Lesart des Koran" ("A Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran"), published in Berlin by Das Arabische Buch. It is out of print, and there are no translations in other languages. But a new, updated edition (again in German) is about to arrive in bookstores.

Here follows an interview with the author, published in Germany in the newspaper "Süddeutsche Zeitung" and in Italy in "L´espresso," no. 11, March 12-18, 2004: The Virgins and the Grapes: the Christian Origins of the Koran

Ping!

[taxcontrol]

I am not sure what you are referring to as spurious.

Given the range of dates, it is quite possible for Mohammad to have been born, lived and died inside of that range. That in turn, means that the oral traditions could have easily have started prior to the script in question. It also means that the capture of those oral traditions in the form of this script is quite possible. The dates do not NEGATE the Quran as the author attempts to portray.

[gleeaikin]

Note this quote from the article, “Dr Keith Small, a Koranic manuscript consultant at Oxford’s Bodleian Library, admits the carbon dating applies to the parchment, not the ink, while the calligraphy is characteristic of a later style.” So, a further determination will need to be made on the date of the ink. On the other hand, if it is as old as they think, then either Mohammad was a plagiarist or his followers were liars.

[ameribbean expat]

http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2012/12/the-christian-origins-of-islam