Posted on 04/14/2014 4:29:29 PM PDT by Jim Robinson
Warning follows threat from Harry Reid that grazing dispute 'not over'
The chief of the Constitutional Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association says his sources inside the federal government are warning that Washington’s weekend retreat in a dispute over grazing land in Nevada was just to distract and defuse – because a raid on the family’s ranch still is being strategized.
And there probably would be violence involved, said Richard Mack, the former sheriff of Grisham County, Ariz.
“I don’t think it would be possible” to launch a raid without violence, he told WND Monday. “I don’t the Bundys would lie down and be taken.”
He cited the threat from Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., that the confrontation was far from over, despite the weekend’s retreat by armed gunmen working for federal agencies.
Reid on Monday told KRNV-TV in Reno. “It’s not over. We can’t have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it. So it’s not over.”
(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...
Now I understand why you’ve had your bell rung so hard here...
You ought to be checking into biggov.com where you’ll be among like minded people.
Good luck and best wishes to you and yours - you have wished me away before because I did not agree with you. Like everything - we all have opinions. Clearly we do not agree about Mr. Bundy, but we each have the right to our own opinions. Banning me or anyone else who does not agree with you on everything does not change minds, educate, or make FR a more lively place. It just makes the echoes louder.
Government by it’s very nature is force. It always will be. The application of force rarely reflects the perfect application of justice for either the government or citizen fighting government. Gunning down someone removing Bundy’s cattle from the range per the orders of a court that deliberated on his case would be no more righteous than blowing up the Federal building in Oklahoma City. McVeigh believed he was striking a blow for freedom, but I believe most of us would agree his actions changed nothing. I don’t believe anyone responsible for the incident that sparked him was even present. His actions did not convince others to begin a revolution against the government. In fact, I would even argue his actions promoted a backlash against some of the sentiment on this thread. Revolution is ugly business not to be taken lightly or expressed in a two line drive-by flame on a web forum. It is purchased in blood - lots of it if history is the guide.
The government is oppressing some guy who did not pay his range fees and defied a court order does not sound like a rallying cry to me and I bet many others afraid to swim against the yelling around here feel the same way. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don’t think so.
Representative government and the rule of law will always be an imperfect business and always has been - like many things both are a pendulum that can swing too far. The risk always exists that it will tip over because some level of equilibrium is necessary for it to function as designed.
We appear to be headed towards that tipping point on a host of issues including land usage rights via the EPA and other government regulations/taxations that stifle freedom. We are headed that way with public debt. There is a much larger issue at play with Bundy. There are ramifications for him winning (some would celebrate) just as there were for the Black Panthers getting away with voter intimidation (some did not celebrate).
Bundy’s story could just as easily be a municipality vs resident, county vs farmer, or state vs citizen. Government is the same animal in different sizes, but each level enforces the laws enacted by the elected representatives through legislation and interpretation by force if necessary. Our system of government demands an educated and moral populace that understands both the necessity and danger of government. An almost impossible task as our founders warned us. If conservatives can’t convince a majority we are right we won’t win. Talking about shooting BLM employees who are removing cattle from public land per a court order is not going to convince the majority your views are right about government.
As others have said before being shouted down - Bundy is terribly flawed no matter how many millions show up to stand with him or cheer him - tens of millions will view him without sympathy. The majority won’t even know about him because they don’t care or pay attention.
This is not the fight and I pray something really stupid does not happen on either side.
I’m a veteran of the Vietnam conflict. Chu Lai, VN 1965 to 1966, on a four year volunteer tour in the U.S. Marines.
Any other snide remarks you would like to dispense my lady?
my landlady would be pissed if I still sent rent checks to her ex..
They did not aid and abet this.
Now you're just lying.
Government provides them with food, aid, and comfort, not to mention medical, jobs, drivers licenses, food stamps, welfare, etc etc., after Americans have be screamed, protested, petitioned and voted for relief from this epic country killing invasion?
BTW, If you’re represented Mr. beer, why were tens of millions of Americans totally ignored for the past several decades when they screamed, protested, petitioned and voted for relief from this epic invasion of our country?
Why are you evading the questions?
Of course the military would fire. They’re trained to follow orders.
Who ultimately pays them doesn’t matter.
Put it in English friend. This is America.
As far as the kneeling goes I have never given up nor given in regardless of the cost of the fight. But the fight must be a worthy one and I would not chose to die on “Bundy’s Hill”. Twenty years and unfavorable court decisions, political corruption not withstanding, demands a clear and unemotional evaluation before committing to it. Flags unfurled and waving above the heads of an armed mob, comprised of well-meaning people, at best misguided, at least not fully informed, is not my idea of the way to go about dealing with the corrupt nor the socialists.
But before you cast aspersions on my character again be it known I volunteered to serve in the Marines for four years and served in country in Chu Lai, VN in ‘65-66. I didn’t kneel there either.
Thanks for the post @414. I will not call you names and you made many good points.
I would point out that the current situation with Bundy and his cattle only came about after a lengthy court process where he did not prevail. While the timing is a bit suspect to me with Reid and his sons business dancing around in the back of my head, I am pretty sure the first order for him to remove the cattle was issued long ago. Despite these facts, his range use continued and he never entered into a contract to use the property.
What was left for BLM to do? How many times should he be told to remove the cattle from land that was not his? The next step is to remove the cattle. Given the past history and perceived threats (who knows - I was not there) they brought along a ridiculous amount of law enforcement to protect unarmed people trying to remove cows.
The cost of this whole thing is ridiculous, but then again, when has government ever done anything cheaply? Bundy created a situation that caused the government to squander millions of borrowed dollars and now it’s for naught. How much did he save himself by not paying for graze like others do? This may cost us more than the White House vacation program before it’s over.
FRegards
Put it in English friend. This is America.
barely
it means I’d rather die on my feet than live on my knees.
as for kneeling if you stick with the troll that’s his plan of action apparently not yours. choose your compatriots wisely, when you side with a snake you appear to be a snake even if you are not.
So the NSA has the dope on this man too?
I am not impressed with court decisions these days, I am more interested in knowing the 100 plus years of history in any given situation like this. And I have certainly read some arguments that the Feds don't really own these lands -some people apparently consider the Feds to be the real squatters.
I no longer have faith in the courts, the laws, or the Federal Government. After all, the courts were used to make it legal to kill unborn children - the most innocent and deserving of life than anyone. Abortion is not right, it is legal because of the courts. So that is when I started to doubt the courts and their judgment.
I consider Abortion to be murder and a Holocaust far worse than what happened in Germany. These are innocent children, who have not even been born, and have not done anything wrong.
The courts support things like protecting the spotted owl, putting lumberjacks out of work, meanwhile politicians and their cohorts are lining their pockets in the solar energy schemes while birds are killed including "endangered" and other damages etc.
Many times the Supreme Court has reversed decisions made by several lower courts, so a court order may be legal, but that is not a certainty till the Supremes weigh in. Even then legality vs right is a totally different thing.
Then consider the laws, that are infringing on everyone’s rights, passed by corrupt politicians for their own and their crony capitalist buddies benefit. Laws that hurt American citizens, while they line their pockets.
The Federal Government is totally out of control when it comes to land usage. A person can buy a lot in a subdivision and all of a sudden have it declared wetlands, and face fines that will bankrupt them. Face court battles that can bankrupt them.
Now we have courts looking like they are going to find some excuse to prohibit flying the American Flag in schools. Well I could go on, but you get my drift.
Some people are just so fed up with all this crap, that they are just thankful to see anyone with the guts to stand up to the Feds no matter whether the cause is just or the person is less than exemplary.
It's not about fees for grazing.(Fees that were voluntary for mediation services somehow morphed into mandatory fees for grazing and dictation of activity). No this is more in the spirit of dishonest John finally getting his comeuppance or the hillbillies running the G Men out of town, or someone finally standing up to a local corrupt sheriff who pushes people around, if you get my drift.
Bureaucrats aren't elected, and yet they make proclamations that courts recognize as laws, even when it's just some G man dictator wannabe trying to get even with someone that didn't jump when told to. It's a big stinking mess, and people are fed up. The fees and court order in this case are totally irrelevant to many on these threads, and even if considered relevant, suspected to be tainted.
Now I really am done.
I should be concerned regarding your opinion as to whether I’m a snake or not? Who are you to judge? Because I advocate for the use of reason instead of emotion? I don’t follow mobs nor do I lead them. Clear headed thinking results in more victories than blind emotional responses and that is what I witnessed tonight as I read that entire thread. To some anyone expressing a different view was considered a “troll”, or a “plant” and the subject of ridicule and accusations of cowardice, as in the case of the response from Marmema to me. When I pointed out I am a veteran of the Vietnam War she posted a response with a link to a YouTube video entitled “La de Freakin’ da”. I am far removed from the ranks of cowards. She is far removed from the ranks of “Ladies”. So much for the respect shown to veterans of foreign wars by those alleging themselves to be conservatives.
So think of me as you will. Quite a few posters lost credibility through the use of their words tonight. You are among them. That’s unfortunate as you would think only those determined to destroy this nation would sow the seeds of division among the ranks of conservatives and patriots. Strange to be taking “friendly fire” on Free Republic for having voiced an opinion.
Happy trails to you.
Semper Fi
” We can’t have an American people that violate the law and then just walk away from it”!!!
What the hell have Reid, Pelosi and the magic negro been doing for the last 6years.
Criminal oafs.
If you’re in start a thread to hold the results and ping me
What was in the dump truck??? Was it BLM “cannons”??????
If you’re in start a thread to hold the results, ping me
We’re doing research to see if the lands the BLM is targeting in NV TX and CO were used as collateral for the Chinese loans to fund the government. If so are the Feds getting prepared for the foreclosures
I hope the BLM gives you a raise for your loyalty.
You’re mixing things up and together that have nothing to do with Cliven Bundy. The guys not a hero. His legal theory as to why he won’t pay is wrong and not legally valid. It’s great that they got the government to temporarily “back down”. They’ll simply lien Bundy’s assets. This is the wrong flag to rally around.
Compare him to Otis McDonald. Otis McDonald broke no law. Otis McDonald is a real hero and worth rally around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._Chicago#Cause
As are the other three plaintiffs in the McDonald v. Chicago case: Adam Orlov - ex cop and Colleen & David Lawson - home owners with a family that includes a grandma.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/meet-otis-mcdonald-man-behind-scotus-chicago-gun-case
Are you able to see how these cases are winners, not just in the courts, but in the most important sphere: the Court of Public Opinion?
http://www.chicagoguncase.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/complaint.pdf
Read the case and you’ll see why McDonald & the other plaintiffs won. These cases radicalized the Democrats and the gun controllers laws, not the people fighting them. McDonald, Orlov and the Lawsons are heros. They’re ordinary people whom government unfairly oppressed and put at risk.
Bundy’s not like that. His legal theory is garbage. Does that mean that the Feds are right? No, they really do abuse land rights and ignore the other parties here. I am absolutely for getting the Fedgov out of the land owning business. Let the states take this over.
If you want to get to that point and win in court and win the hearts and minds of the general public Bundy’s the wrong guy with the wrong issues. That said, there are real victims out there. Let’s get them, let’s expand this issue back to where it needs to be and not get embarrassed or undermined defending a guy who is using kooky ideas and a cheat.
MarMema: It matters not one whit whether he pays the fees or not.
It matters greatly. He could afford to pay the fees, right? Did he put them in an escrow account to be held by a neutral third party until this is resolved? No, he didn’t. That’s the normal procedure in law.
You can withhold payments if the other party is not living up to its contractual end of the bargain. Then you bring the case and you start out with the moral high ground. “Judge, this isn’t about not wanting to pay. It’s about a pattern of abuse of contractual obligations.”
Take a look at this case:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/144609491/United-States-v-Estate-of-Hage-No-2-07-cv-01154-RCJ-VCF-Findings-of-Fact-Conclusions-of-Law-and-Injunction-D-Nev-May-24-2013
I got the link off of another thread. Read it. Hage had a kooky idea as well that there was no such thing as federal land. But, in this case the court recognized the fedgov abuse.
Here’s the quote from the case:
“In the present case, the Government’s actions over the past two decades shocks the conscience of the Court, and the burden on the Government of taking a few minutes to realize that the reference to the UCC on the Estate’s application was nonsensical and would not affect the terms of the permit was minuscule compared to the private interest affected. ..Based upon E. Wayne Hage’s declaration that he refused to waive his rights—a declaration that did not purport to change the substance of the grazing permit renewal for which he was applying, and which had no plausible legal effect other than to superfluously assert non-waiver of rights—the Government denied him a renewal grazing permit based upon its frankly nonsensical position that such an assertion of rights meant that the application had not been properly completed.”
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