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Falling Stars, Damnable Heresy, and the Spirit of Evolution
Renew America ^ | Sept. 19, 2013 | Linda Kimball

Posted on 09/20/2013 4:29:03 AM PDT by spirited irish

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son” (1 John 2:22).

“And the fifth angel sounded the trumpet, and I saw a star fall from heaven upon the earth, and there was given to him the key of the bottomless pit." (Rev. 9:1)

In his Concise Commentary Matthew Henry identifies falling stars as tepid, indecisive, weak or apostate clergy who,

"Having ceased to be a minister of Christ, he who is represented by this star becomes the minister of the devil; and lets loose the powers of hell against the churches of Christ."

John identifies antichrists, in this case clergy who serve the devil rather than Christ, sequentially. First, like Bultmann, Teilhard de Chardin, Robert Funk, Paul Tillich, and John Shelby Spong, they specifically deny the living, personal Holy Trinity in favor of Gnostic pagan, immanent or Eastern pantheist conceptions. Though God the Father Almighty in three Persons upholds the souls of men and maintains life and creation, His substance is not within nature (space-time dimension) as pantheism maintains, but outside of it. Sinful men live within nature and are burdened by time and mortality; God is not.

Second, the specific denial of the Father logically negates Jesus the Christ, the Word who was in the beginning (John 1), was with God, and is God from the creation of all things (1 John 1). In a pre-incarnate theophany, Jesus is the Angel who spoke “mouth to mouth” to Moses (Num. 12:6-9; John 9:20) and at sundry times and in many ways “spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all…” (Hebrews 1:1) Jesus the Christ is the incarnate Son of God who is the life and light of men, who by His shed blood on the Cross died for the remission of all sins and bestowed the privilege of adoption on all who put their faith in Him.

Therefore, to deny the Holy Father is to logically deny the deity of Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God, hence,

“…every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist . . . and even now already is it in the world” (1 John 4:3).

According to Peter (2 Peter 2:1), falling stars will work among the faithful, teaching damnable heresies that deny the Lord, cause the fall of men into unbelief, and bring destruction upon themselves:

“The natural parents of modern unbelief turn out to have been the guardians of belief.” Many thinking people came at last “to realize that it was religion, not science or social change that gave birth to unbelief. Having made God more and more like man---intellectually, morally, emotionally---the shapers of religion made it feasible to abandon God, to believe simply in man.” (James Turner of the University of Michigan in “American Babylon,” Richard John Neuhaus, p. 95)

Falling Stars and Damnable Heresy

Almost thirty years ago, two well-respected social science scholars, William Sims Bainbridge and Rodney Stark found themselves alarmed by what they saw as a rising tide of irrationalism, superstition and occultism---channeling cults, spirit familiars, necromancers, Wiccans, Satanists, Luciferians, goddess worshippers, 'gay' shamans, Hermetic magicians and other occult madness at every level of society, particularly within the most influential--- Hollywood, academia and the highest corridors of political power.

Like many scientists, they were equally concerned by Christian opposition to naturalistic evolution. As is common in the science community, they assumed the cause of these social pathologies was somehow due to fundamentalism, their term for authentic Christian theism as opposed to liberalized Christianity. Yet to their credit, the research they undertook to discover the cause was conducted both scientifically and with great integrity. What they found was so startling it caused them to re-evaluate their attitude toward authentic Christian theism. Their findings led them to say:

"It would be a mistake to conclude that fundamentalists oppose all science (when in reality they but oppose) a single theory (that) directly contradicts the bible. But it would be an equally great mistake to conclude that religious liberals and the irreligious possess superior minds of great rationality, to see them as modern personalities who have no need of the supernatural or any propensity to believe unscientific superstitions. On the contrary...they are much more likely to accept the new superstitions. It is the fundamentalists who appear most virtuous according to scientific standards when we examine the cults and pseudo-sciences proliferating in our society today." ("Superstitions, Old and New," The Skeptical Inquirer, Vol. IV, No. 4; summer, 1980)

In more detail they observed that authentic ‘born again’ Christians are far less likely to accept cults and pseudoscientific beliefs while the irreligious and liberalized Christians (i.e., progressive Catholics, Protestant emergent, NAR, word faith, prosperity gospel) are open to unscientific notions. In fact, these two groups are most disposed toward occultism.

As Bainbridge and Stark admitted, evolution directly contradicts the Bible, beginning with the Genesis account of creation ex nihilo. This means that evolution is the antithesis of the Genesis account. For this reason, discerning Christians refuse to submit to the evolutionary thinking that has swept Western and American society. Nor do they accept the evolutionary theism brought into the whole body of the Church by weak, tepid, indecisive, or apostate clergy.

Over eighty years ago, Rev. C. Leopold Clarke wrote that priests who embrace evolution (evolutionary theists) are apostates from the ‘Truth as it is in Jesus.’ (1 John2:2) Rev. Clarke, a lecturer at a London Bible college, discerned that evolution is the antithesis to the Revelation of God in the Deity of Jesus Christ, thus it is the greatest and most active agent of moral and spiritual disintegration:

“It is a battering-ram of unbelief---a sapping and mining operation that intends to blow Religion sky-high. The one thing which the human mind demands in its conception of God, is that, being Almighty, He works sovereignly and miraculously---and this is the thing with which Evolution dispenses….Already a tremendous effect, on a wide scale has been produced by the impact of this teaching---an effect which can only be likened to the…collapse of foundations…” (Evolution and the Break-Up of Christendom, Philip Bell, creation.com, Nov. 27, 2012)

The faith of the Christian Church and of the average Christian has had, and still has, its foundation as much in the literal and historic meaning of Genesis, the book of beginnings revealed ‘mouth to mouth’ by the Angel to Moses, as in that of the person and deity of Jesus Christ. But how horrible a travesty of the sacred office of the Christian Ministry to see church leaders more eager to be abreast of the times, than earnestly contending for the Faith once delivered unto the saints (Jude 1:3). It is high time, said Rev. Clarke, that the Church,

“…. separated herself from the humiliating entanglement attending her desire to be thought up to date…What, after all, have custodians of Divine Revelation to do making terms with speculative Biology, which has….no message of comfort or help to the soul?” (ibid)

The primary tactic employed by priests eager to accommodate themselves and the Church to modern science and evolutionary thinking is predictable. It is the argument that evolution is entirely compatible with the Bible when we see Genesis, especially the first three chapters, in a non-literal, non-historical context. This is the argument embraced and advanced by mega-church pastor Timothy J. Keller.

With a position paper Keller published with the theistic evolutionary organization Bio Logos he joined the ranks of falling stars (Catholic and Protestant priests) stretching back to the Renaissance. Their slippery-slide into apostasy began when they gave into the temptation to embrace a non-literal, non-historical view of Genesis. (A response to Timothy Keller’s ‘Creation, Evolution and Christian Laypeople,” Lita Cosner, Sept. 9, 2010, creation.com)

This is not a heresy unique to modern times. The early Church Fathers dealt with this damnable heresy as well, counting it among the heretical tendencies of the Origenists. Fourth-century Fathers such as John Chrysostom, Basil the Great and Ephraim the Syrian, all of whom wrote commentaries on Genesis, specifically warned against treating Genesis as an unhistorical myth or allegory. John Chrysostom strongly warned against paying heed to these heretics,

“…let us stop up our hearing against them, and let us believe the Divine Scripture, and following what is written in it, let us strive to preserve in our souls sound dogmas.” (Genesis, Creation, and Early Man, Fr. Seraphim Rose, p. 31)

As St. Cyril of Alexandria wrote, higher theological, spiritual meaning is founded upon humble, simple faith in the literal and historic meaning of Genesis and one cannot apprehend rightly the Scriptures without believing in the historical reality of the events and people they describe. (ibid, Seraphim Rose, p. 40)

In the integral worldview teachings of the Fathers, neither the literal nor historical meaning of the Revelations of the pre-incarnate Jesus, the Angel who spoke to Moses, can be regarded as expendable. There are at least four critically important reasons why. First, to reduce the Revelation of God to allegory and myth is to contradict and usurp the authority of God, ultimately deny the deity of Jesus Christ; twist, distort, add to and subtract from the entire Bible and finally, to imperil the salvation of believers.

Scenarios commonly proposed by modern Origenists posit a cleverly disguised pantheist/immanent nature deity subject to the space-time dimension and forces of evolution. But as noted previously, it is sinful man who carries the burden of time, not God. This is a crucial point, for when evolutionary theists add millions and billions of zeros (time) to God they have transferred their own limitations onto Him. They have ‘limited’ God and made Him over in their own image. This is not only idolatrous but satanic.

Additionally, evolution inverts creation. In place of God’s good creation from which men fell there is an evolutionary escalator starting at the bottom with matter, then progressing upward toward life, then up and through the life and death of millions of evolved creatures that preceded humans by millions of years until at long last an apish humanoid emerges into which a deity that is always in a state of becoming (evolving) places a soul.

Evolution amputates the entire historical precedent from the Gospel and makes Jesus Christ unnecessary as the atheist Frank Zindler enthusiastically points out:

“The most devastating thing that biology did to Christianity was the discovery of biological evolution. Now that we know that Adam and Eve never were real people the central myth of Christianity is destroyed. If there never was an Adam and Eve, there never was an original sin. If there never was an original sin there is no need of salvation. If there is no need of salvation there is no need of a saviour. And I submit that puts Jesus…into the ranks of the unemployed. I think evolution absolutely is the death knell of Christianity.” (“Atheism vs. Christianity,” 1996, Lita Cosner, creation.com, June 13, 2013)

None of this was lost on Darwin’s bulldog, Thomas Henry Huxley (1825-1985). Huxley was thoroughly familiar with the Bible, thus he understood that if Genesis is not the authoritative Word of God, is not historical and literal despite its’ symbolic and poetic elements, then the entirety of Scripture becomes a collection of fairytales resulting in tragic downward spiraling consequences as the Catholic Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation makes clear in part:

“By denying the historical truth of the first chapters of Genesis, theistic evolutionism has fostered a preoccupation with natural causes almost to the exclusion of supernatural ones. By denying the several supernatural creative acts of God in Genesis, and by downplaying the importance of the supernatural activity of Satan, theistic evolutionists slip into a naturalistic mentality which seeks to explain everything in terms of natural causes. Once this mentality takes hold, it is easy for men to regard the concept of spiritual warfare as a holdover from the days of primitive superstition. Diabolical activity is reduced to material or psychological causes. The devil and his demons come to be seen as irrelevant. Soon ‘hell’ joins the devil and his demons in the category of antiquated concepts. And the theistic evolutionist easily makes the fatal mistake of thinking that he has nothing more to fear from the devil and his angels. According to Fr. Gabriele Amorth, the chief exorcist of Rome, there is a tremendous increase in diabolical activity and influence in the formerly Christian world. And yet most of the bishops of Europe no longer believe in the existence of evil spirits….To the Fathers of the Church who believed in the truth of Genesis, this would be incredible. But in view of the almost universal acceptance of theistic evolution, it is hardly surprising.” (The Difference it makes: The Importance of the Traditional Doctrine of Creation, Hugh Owen, kolbecenter.org)

Huxley had ‘zero’ respect for modern Origenists and received enormous pleasure from heaping piles of hot coals and burning contempt upon them, thereby exposing their shallow-reasoning, hypocrisy, timidity, fear of non-acceptance, and unfaithfulness. With sarcasm dripping from his words he quipped,

“I am fairly at a loss to comprehend how any one, for a moment, can doubt that Christian theology must stand or fall with the historical trustworthiness of the Jewish Scriptures. The very conception of the Messiah, or Christ, is inextricably interwoven with Jewish history; the identification of Jesus of Nazareth with that Messiah rests upon the interpretation of passages of the Hebrew Scriptures which have no evidential value unless they possess the historical character assigned to them. If the covenant with Abraham was not made; if circumcision and sacrifices were not ordained by Jahveh; if the “ten words” were not written by God’s hand on the stone tables; if Abraham is more or less a mythical hero, such as Theseus; the story of the Deluge a fiction; that of the Fall a legend; and that of the creation the dream of a seer; if all these definite and detailed narratives of apparently real events have no more value as history than have the stories of the regal period of Rome—what is to be said about the Messianic doctrine, which is so much less clearly enunciated? And what about the authority of the writers of the books of the New Testament, who, on this theory, have not merely accepted flimsy fictions for solid truths, but have built the very foundations of Christian dogma upon legendary quicksands?” (Darwin’s Bulldog---Thomas Huxley, Russell Grigg, creation.com, Oct. 14, 2008)

Pouring more contempt on them he asked,

“When Jesus spoke, as of a matter of fact, that "the Flood came and destroyed them all," did he believe that the Deluge really took place, or not? It seems to me that, as the narrative mentions Noah’s wife, and his sons’ wives, there is good scriptural warranty for the statement that the antediluvians married and were given in marriage; and I should have thought that their eating and drinking might be assumed by the firmest believer in the literal truth of the story. Moreover, I venture to ask what sort of value, as an illustration of God’s methods of dealing with sin, has an account of an event that never happened? If no Flood swept the careless people away, how is the warning of more worth than the cry of “Wolf” when there is no wolf? If Jonah’s three days’ residence in the whale is not an “admitted reality,” how could it “warrant belief” in the “coming resurrection?” … Suppose that a Conservative orator warns his hearers to beware of great political and social changes, lest they end, as in France, in the domination of a Robespierre; what becomes, not only of his argument, but of his veracity, if he, personally, does not believe that Robespierre existed and did the deeds attributed to him?” (ibid)

Concerning Matthew 19:5:

“If divine authority is not here claimed for the twenty-fourth verse of the second chapter of Genesis, what is the value of language? And again, I ask, if one may play fast and loose with the story of the Fall as a “type” or “allegory,” what becomes of the foundation of Pauline theology?” (ibid)

And concerning Cor. 15:21-22:

“If Adam may be held to be no more real a personage than Prometheus, and if the story of the Fall is merely an instructive “type,” comparable to the profound Promethean mythus, what value has Paul’s dialectic?” (ibid)

After much thought, C.S. Lewis concluded that evolution is the central, most radical lie at the center of a vast network of lies within which modern Westerners are entangled while Rev. Clarke identifies the central lie as the Gospel of another Spirit. The fiendish aim of this Spirit is to help men lose God, not find Him, and by contradicting the Divine Redeemer, compromising Priests are serving this Spirit and its’ diabolical purposes. To contradict the Divine Redeemer is the very essence of unfaithfulness, and that it should be done while reverence is professed,

“…. is an illustration of the intellectual and moral topsy-turvydom of Modernism…’He whom God hath sent speaketh the Words of God,’ claimed Christ of Himself (John 3:34), and no assumption of error can hold water in the face of that declaration, without blasphemy.” Evolutionary theists are serving the devil, therefore “no considerations of Christian charity, of tolerance, of policy, can exonerate Christian leaders or Churches who fail to condemn and to sever themselves from compromising, cowardly, shilly-shallying priests”---the falling stars who “challenge the Divine Authority of Jesus Christ.” (ibid)

The rebuttals, warnings and counsels of the Fathers against listening to Origenists (and their modern evolutionary counterparts) indicates that the spirit of antichrist operating through modern rationalistic criticism of the Revelation of God is not a heresy unique to our times but was inveighed against by early Church Fathers.

From the scholarly writings of the Eastern Orthodox priest, Fr. Seraphim Rose, to the incisive analysis, rebuttals and warnings of the Catholic Kolbe Center, creation.com, Creation Research Institute, Rev. Clarke, and many other stalwart defenders of the faith once delivered, all are a clear, compelling call to the whole body of the Church to hold fast to the traditional doctrine of creation as it was handed down from the Apostles, for as God spoke and Jesus is the Living Word incarnate, it is incumbent upon the faithful to submit their wills to the Divine Will and Authority of God rather than to the damnable heresy proffered by falling stars eager to embrace naturalistic science and the devil's antithesis--- evolution. But if it seem evil to you to serve the Lord,

“…you have your choice: choose this day that which pleases you, whom you would rather serve….but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: apologetics; be; crevo; evolution; forum; historicity; historicityofchrist; historicityofjesus; inman; magic; naturalism; pantheism; religion; scientism; should
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To: hosepipe

Doesn’t disqualify me either.


1,221 posted on 11/16/2013 5:16:55 PM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: metmom; hosepipe
Doesn’t disqualify me either.

"Rejection of the living God Who dwells outside the time-space universe with special antipathy directed against Jesus Christ"

That is what you must do to qualify as "humanist", according to the list presented. If you don't do that, then you are disqualified. Are you sure that doesn't disqualify you?

1,222 posted on 11/17/2013 6:17:16 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic; mom

That is what you must do to qualify as “humanist”, according to the list presented.
If you don’t do that, then you are disqualified.
Are you sure that doesn’t disqualify you?


“Humanist” is a misnomer... a mask... a diversion..
Looking at things as they “really are” seems to be a “skill”..
A skill not all possess... Reality may not be able to be seen..

The “Cargo Cults” are varied and diverse..
The cargos are amazingly uniform.. stylized.. with designer packaging..


1,223 posted on 11/17/2013 8:18:32 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe
“Humanist” is a misnomer... a mask... a diversion..

I didn't post it, I just commented on it.

1,224 posted on 11/17/2013 8:21:43 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic

just the same....


1,225 posted on 11/17/2013 8:32:42 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe

Why didn’t you take exception to it back at #1213?


1,226 posted on 11/17/2013 8:42:47 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic

Why didn’t you take exception to it back at #1213?


Because I liked Linda Kimbals screed...
and C.S. Lewis was and is thought provoking...


1,227 posted on 11/17/2013 8:59:22 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe

So it’s about the people, not the argument.


1,228 posted on 11/17/2013 9:02:38 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic

Hello. Since when did I ever present myself as a humanist?

I’ve clearly made my stand as a Christian known and I KNOW you’ve been around enough to see that on the crevo threads.


1,229 posted on 11/17/2013 9:22:11 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: metmom
I’ve clearly made my stand as a Christian known and I KNOW you’ve been around enough to see that on the crevo threads

I know. A list of the distinguishing qualities of humanism was presented, with the implication that it was representative of some "correspondents" on the thread. I simply noted that the very first item on the list would disqualify everyone on the thread (including you) as being "humanist". Nobody here is denying the existence of God.

1,230 posted on 11/17/2013 9:28:01 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic

I see how you’re looking at that now.

I read it wrong initially.


1,231 posted on 11/17/2013 9:39:28 AM PST by metmom ( ...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith....)
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To: tacticalogic

So it’s about the people, not the argument.


Arguments are made by people..
Sometimes tacticalogic you’re neither tactical or logical..

but nobody’s perfect..


1,232 posted on 11/17/2013 11:17:59 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe
Arguments are made by people..

And you choose the arguments you'll take exception to according to who's making them. I understand.

1,233 posted on 11/17/2013 11:22:13 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic

And you choose the arguments you’ll take exception to according to who’s making them. I understand.


Thats a relief.......... AT least you’re not stupid..
Actually like you... I choose what arguments to take exception to by tactics and logic..
made by people... personally..


1,234 posted on 11/17/2013 6:53:00 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe
Actually like you... I choose what arguments to take exception to by tactics and logic.. made by people... personally..

I don't make it personal. If "humanism" is a diversion, then it's a diversion no matter who's injecting it into the thread.

1,235 posted on 11/18/2013 5:45:34 AM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic

I don’t make it personal.


I do.... you deserve no less...

Cause I KNOW there is a “Crank” at the other end of that internet “handle”..


1,236 posted on 11/18/2013 11:09:19 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: BroJoeK; tacticalogic; 1010RD; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; spirited irish; TXnMA; YHAOS; MHGinTN; ...
To Ms. Boop: I've posted my response to your allegations now several times, most recently in #1,196 above, to which you might also note 1010RD's response in #1,201.

Well I suppose it's easier for you to redirect me to the reexamination of our past back-and-forth statements than it is to simply answer a simple question: What is the foundation of science itself?

Then there is the problem of: What "allegations" have I made? Can you recite them back to me?

I have tried six-ways-to-Sunday to show you the epistemic root of our apparent difference, inviting you to reflect on it; and have tried to demonstrate it, to show it to you, from several points of view. And for all my trouble, I get back — every time, without fail — the simple statement: "The definition — and purpose — of science is finding 'natural explanations for natural processes.'"

As ever, I would like to know: WHO defined "science" in this way? (Would you just tell me???)

Certainly we can't blame Thomas Aquinas, Saint and Doctor of the universal Church. He never artificially divided the spiritual from the natural world; it was not he who proposed them as somehow mutually exclusive categories, such that "science" has to choose between them in order to do its business.

Rather, St. Thomas saw the natural world as an epiphany of God. To put it another way, the "material" universe is a process created, designed, and constantly sustained by the creative Will, Logos, and Living Sacrifice of God.

Thomas saw "natural law" as emergent in human consciousness from "divine law." The former is "nested" in the latter; the latter is the former's very "environment," in which it is doing its "scientific" work.

Thomas never indicated the two realms were mutually exclusive. Why do you, dear BroJoeK?

And I have absolutely no problem with the idea that the universe and everything in it "evolves." What else could you possibly expect a cosmic-scale spatio-temporal process to do?

Also I have no problem whatsoever with the scientifically-assessed age of the universe: 13.7 billion years (or maybe ~15 billion years). I don't see this as invalidating Genesis 1 or John 1:1–5 in any way shape or form.

When you asked me, "So please tell us how such a simple concept can be so difficult for you to grasp?" I definitely got the impression that you were trying to stage me as some kind of stoopid religious fanatic who, being "religious," is necessarily "stoopid."

Would you like to tell that to, e.g., Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, LeMaitre, et al.???

Gotta run for now. Am looking forward to your next. Thank you ever so much for writing, dear BroJoeK!

1,237 posted on 11/18/2013 12:32:39 PM PST by betty boop
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To: betty boop; BroJoeK; tacticalogic; 1010RD; Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; TXnMA; YHAOS; MHGinTN
To BroK;
"So please tell us how such a simple concept can be so difficult for you to grasp?" I definitely got the impression that you were trying to stage me as some kind of stoopid religious fanatic who, being "religious," is necessarily "stoopid."

Would you like to tell that to, e.g., Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, LeMaitre, et al.???
----------------------------------------------------------------------

LoL.. Indeed,, Reminds me of some genius's I met at a few academic instutions that related.. "You have your truth I have mine".. as if truth was an just an "opinion"..

The pity being...... "to them" truth was just an opinion..
They did not know what to trust SOoo they trusted NOTHING..
to wit: Designer Paranoia..

Heck; Even the EVO's believed something, even if it was claptrap...

1,238 posted on 11/18/2013 12:58:30 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe
I do....

And that's why it's posted in News and Activism, so you can do that.

1,239 posted on 11/18/2013 1:20:38 PM PST by tacticalogic
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To: tacticalogic; Alamo-Girl; BroJoeK; spirited irish; hosepipe; YHAOS; metmom; marron; ...
What questions you ask depends on what kind of problem you’re trying to solve…. You and I cannot find agreement on the questions to be asked because we are not working on the same problem. You said earlier that it is not an intellectual problem, but a spiritual problem. This is your opinion and your perspective. You ask questions trying to solve a spiritual problem…. From my perspective (and I suspect BroJoeK’s) it is an intellectual problem, so I ask different questions.

I wouldn’t agree that the reason we “cannot find agreement on the questions to be asked” is because we “are not working on the same problem.” Rather, I believe the difficulty arises because we are not standing on the same “ground of being.”

You may be asking different questions than I ask; but in the end, you still have the problem of qualifying and validating the answers you receive, just as I do. You cannot divorce science from Truth — of which God, not man, is the Measure.

In an earlier post, you wondered why anyone would want to “construct” a scientific model in which everything bottoms out in atoms. I alleged that this is precisely what materialist/mechanist/naturalist presuppositions logically lead to.

But then, maybe we need to agree on exactly what it is that “naturalism” involves. It seems to me there are “natural” phenomena which have non-observable causes. Such causes are typically denied as "realizable" in Nature by persons of materialist/mechanist/naturalist persuasion in principle, which placies them outside the scientific method entirely. But the point is, they’d still be natural phenomena — despite the fact that science is prohibited from investigating them.

Which so far is probably all as clear as mud to you, dear tacticalogic. Please allow me to clarify.

What is striking about your and BroJoeK’s arguments is the evident agreement between you regarding the absolute separability of the “super-natural” from the “natural” world. You see these “worlds” as mutually-exclusive domains according to the logic of Aristotle’s Third Law, and classical (i.e., Newtonian) physics. Then you maintain that science has to pick one and reject the other in order to do its work. So the “super-natural” gets dumped, never to be seen again....

From my perch, I see the supernatural and the natural not as separable, mutually exclusive categories, but as the ultimate complementarity constituting the natural world of which human beings are “parts and participants.”

The idea of complementarity arises from Niels Bohr’s uncertainty principle. I honor Bohr as one of the greatest epistemologists of all time IMHO and as founding father of the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics.

Investigators of quantum phenomena early on were confronted with a horrifying, mystifying dilemma: They found it impossible, under experimental conditions, to simultaneously quantify both the position and the velocity of a sub-atomic particle (usually a photon). Thus the experimental observer was confronted with a choice: “Respecting this particle, do I want to find out its position or its velocity? ’Cause I can't quantify these two principal variables at the same time.”

Thus the human subjective observer was ineluctably inserted into the very heart of science. (It is to be noted that Einstein had done the same in his General Relativity theory not too long before.)

Here’s something I regard as very important: Bohr himself did not like the term, “uncertainty principle.” He reasoned: A condition of “uncertainty” could be resolved by the acquisition of further relevant knowledge.

But that would not describe what Bohr found: The “condition” we are trying to describe here cannot in principle be resolved by any further acquisition of knowledge. We are speaking of a limitation on human perception (and thus apperception) itself. Bohr thought the problem is not one of “uncertainty”; it is a problem of undecidability.

An insight further supported by Kurt Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem….

A condition of “undecidability” is one in which no matter how much additional knowledge of the world one acquires, one will never be able to answer an “undecidable” question.

So Bohr preferred the term, “undecidability principle.” It did not stick.

But I digress. At the very heart of the idea of complementarity is this: The two sides of the complementarity are only mutually-exclusive in an experimental situation, as conceived by an observer. This is not a question begging for a “true–false,” “yes–no” answer, á la Aristotle’s Third Law. For complementarity regards both “sides” as potentially true — under the given experimental conditions. Though you can’t have “both at once,” you need both to describe the total system which they together comprise.

So that’s why I suggested a while back, dear tacticalogic, that although machines and computers may thrive on maximal “computability” — which Aristotle’s Third definitely maximally promotes — this may not be a good model for biology.

Well I suppose to you, dear friend, this thread has been about the defense of Darwin and of modern science itself.

For me, it’s been a plea for the restoration of sanity to modern science.

Darwin definitely needs “updating”: It’s as if his evolutionary theory rationalizes Nature into some kind of biological machine. Plus its Achilles Heel has always been its total silence on origin issues….

But I continue to suspect there may be something good and worthwhile in the theory. I am sure that what is "true" about it will survive forever more.

What is not true, will perish in time.

I’ll just leave matters there for now, dear tacticalogic. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.

1,240 posted on 11/19/2013 1:01:30 PM PST by betty boop
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