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Do Libertarians Really "Want a World Without Moral Judgments"?
Reason ^
| 03/22/2013
| Nick Gillespie
Posted on 03/22/2013 8:51:10 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
On March 15 in The New York Times, liberal journalist and author Richard Reeves wrote an op-ed about the new plan in New York City to dramatize the many negative effects of teen pregnancy on girls who give birth before graduating high school and outside of a stable two-parent unit. Billboards and other advertisements around the city, for instance, point out that unwed teen mothers are twice as likely to not finish high school as girls who don't give birth before graduating.
With many smart qualifications, Reeves makes a case for shaming regarding teen pregnancy and other behaviors, and he does it from a liberal POV:
A society purged of shame might sound good in theory. But it would be terrible in practice. We need a sense of shame to live well together. For those with liberal instincts, this is necessarily hard. But it is also necessary.
My issue is less with Reeves' views on public shaming per se and more on an aside he makes about libertarians:
Libertarians might want a world without moral judgments, in which teen pregnancy carries no stigma at all. And paternalists might want the state to enshrine judgments in law perhaps by raising the age of sexual consent or mandating contraception. True liberals, though, believe we can hold one another to moral account without coercion. We must not shy away from shame.
I submit to you that few statements are more wrong than saying "libertarians might want a world without moral judgments." From my vantage point, one of the things to which libertarianism is dedicated is the proliferation of moral judgments by freeing people up to the greatest degree possible to create their own ways of being in the world. To conflate the live and let live ethos at the heart of the classical liberal and libertarian project with an essentially nihilistic dismissal of pluralism and tolerance is a gigantic error. It's like saying that because religious dissenters want to abolish a single state church that they are anti-god.
As the anthropologist Grant McCracken argued in a 1998 Reason story called "The Politics of Plenitude," our world is characterized by a "quickening speciation" of social types and sub-cultures, a liberating reality that is typically mistaken for the end of the world and the end of all morality. McCracken notes that plenitude particularly aggrieves conservatives, because they mistake an urge to escape "a morality" for an attempt to abolish "all morality." He explains:
The right acts as if the many groups thrown off by plenitude harbor an anarchic tendency, that people have become gays, feminists, or Deadheads in order to escape morality. This is not the logic of plenitude. These people have reinvented themselves merely to escape a morality, not all morality. New communities set to work immediately in the creation of new moralities. Chaos does not ensue; convention, even orthodoxy, returns. Liminality is the slingshot that allows new groups to free themselves from the gravitational field of the old moralities they must escape. But liminality is almost never the condition that prevails once this liberation has been accomplished.
courtesy PBSReeves is no conservative. He's a devotee of John Stuart Mill and, I rush to add, has said many positive things about Reason over the years. But his characterization of libertarians as uninterested in moral judgments proceeds from a very conservative - and very profound - misunderstanding of what I think we are all about. This sort of thinking typically emanates from the right - how many of us have had conversations with conservatives who equate ending drug prohibition with a case not simply for occasional use of currently illegal drugs but for an absolute embrace of never-ending intoxication and stupefaction? - but apparently it harbors a home on the left as well. (Go here to read part of a debate I had with Jonah Goldberg a decade ago on the same basic topic).
Shame is certainly not the first thing that most libertarians I know reach for in high-minded policy discussions or less serious conversations. On the narrow question of reducing teen pregnancy - which has in any case reached historic lows over the past decades - it's far from clear the role the sort of public shaming enivisioned by New York authorities will play compared to, say, frank discussions of the harshly reduced opportunities faced by young mothers. Certainly, it may make certain policymakers and politicians feel good, but that is hardly any ground by which to analyze the efficacy of a given policy (to his credit, Reeves calls for a cost-benefit analysis himself).
But it's time to start swatting away random accusations of libertarians as nihilists simply because we don't sign on to every given moralistic agenda that is proposed or enacted in the name of the greater good. No less a buttoned-down character than Friedrich Hayek once wrote that "to live and work successfully with others requires more than faithfulness to one's concrete aims. It requires an intellectual commitment to a type of order in which, even on issues which to one are fundamental, others are allowed to pursue different ends." The libertarian commitment to true pluralism and tolerance is not easy to maintain, but it remains exactly the sort of gesture that allows for differing moralities to flourish and, one hopes, new and better ways of living to emerge.
TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: libertarianism; libertarians; morality
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To: SeekAndFind
I consider myself a conservative with some libertarian views, but not a full out Libertarian. There's good. There's bad. There's worse. A sub-question is this. Should everything bad be illegal?
I can't separate the fact that law enforcement is government, and government is at best a necessary evil in of itself. Most people who are killed are killed by government.
As far as shame goes, I'm not a real fan of societal shame for stupidity. Evil is another matter. A lot of things that aren't moral are things regarding stupidity. They harm, but those who enact in that behavior often don't intend to cause harm. With teen pregnancy, shame (along with parental pressure, and boyfriend pressure) often leads to an unintended consequence that 10 times worse. Abortion.
Always think of the unintended consequences.
21
posted on
03/22/2013 9:17:07 AM PDT
by
Darren McCarty
(If most people were more than keyboard warriors, we might have won the election)
To: Tax-chick
>> There is no liberty interest in the homosexual “marriage” movement. It is an authoritarian position, dedicated to using the police power of the state to force others ...
Exactly.
22
posted on
03/22/2013 9:17:08 AM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: Tax-chick
And that is just downright crazy. It’s the next stage of the equality-Nazis march to social Marxism. This is the suicide of a nation. It’s this kind of thinking that has killed America and doomed its future generations, robbing them of centuries of tradition and values. What this says is that evil is non-existent. Every opinion is valid and equal. The Soviet Union collapsed in flames because they abandoned the natural principles of supply and demand. In the future, people will study the collapse of the Western World, which abandoned the natural principles of good and evil.
To: MrB
Everything comes back to the Garden. “You will be as God, judging for yourself good and evil.” It’s so fundamental, because it allows the person to say to himself, “What I want is good, because I want it.”
And then, of course, he says, “And don’t you judge me, you evil HATER!!!!”
24
posted on
03/22/2013 9:18:01 AM PDT
by
Tax-chick
(Now with more LOL and less UNNNGH.)
To: ClearCase_guy
Libertarians [...] are very interested in powering over other people to get what they want. Like f'rinstance how?
25
posted on
03/22/2013 9:21:30 AM PDT
by
JustSayNoToNannies
("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
To: Viennacon
And that is just downright crazy. That's pretty much what I was saying about the author's reasoning, yes.
26
posted on
03/22/2013 9:22:32 AM PDT
by
Tax-chick
(Now with more LOL and less UNNNGH.)
To: Tax-chick; Gene Eric
Under our present laws, any pair (or group) of people can live together, own property together, and designate one another as heirs or attorneys-in-fact. They can have a wedding ceremony performed by a variety of celebrants, religious and non-, if they choose, or simply draw themselves a certificate. There is no liberty interest in the homosexual "marriage" movement.
I heartily agree with all of the above.
It is an authoritarian position, dedicated to using the police power of the state to force others to act against their moral or pragmatic beliefs about certain kinds of behavior.
Who exactly is forced to act how exactly?
27
posted on
03/22/2013 9:24:07 AM PDT
by
JustSayNoToNannies
("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
>> No matter how one cuts the pie, in practice the Libertarian position, devolves down to maximizing personal pleasure and the exercise of power over others.
The Libertarian Party is largely occupied by fools that exemplify your point — they are liberals.
It is important to understand, however, that libertarianism is the opposite of statism. And by dismissing libertarianism, the politics shift in favor of the statism now eroding our liberties.
There are many self-described libertarians that are eager to join the Constitutional revivification of the Country. To shun them is foolish. To believe it requires sacrificing Conservative principles is also foolish.
28
posted on
03/22/2013 9:26:21 AM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: JustSayNoToNannies
Ever see a Libertarian discuss religion? Very rude. Very loud. No nuance. No real discussion. Just shouting down the other person because they're stupid and moralistic and evil and don't worship the flying spaghetti monster. Ridicule. Scorn. Derision.
Sure, it's not government via the end of a gun. It's not bureaucracy. It's not a legal/paperwork/coercive environment -- 'cause Libertarians don't believe in that stuff, right?
But I am convicned that Libertarians are incapable of existing in a truly civil (polite) society. Because they have a severe dislike for anyone who thinks differently than they do.
I say this based on 40 years experience dealing with Libertarians. I believe my lying eyes.
29
posted on
03/22/2013 9:27:09 AM PDT
by
ClearCase_guy
(The ballot box is a sham. Nothing will change until after the war.)
To: JustSayNoToNannies
Catering halls, photographers, insurers, adoption agencies, churches, publishers, etc...
30
posted on
03/22/2013 9:27:38 AM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: SeekAndFind
Stop subsidizing immoral behavior, and the rest will pretty well sort itself out. Let the individual bear the costs of his/her behavior, and reap the benefits. Interestingly, traditional (Christian) morality ends up being pretty efficient.
31
posted on
03/22/2013 9:28:23 AM PDT
by
cdcdawg
To: JustSayNoToNannies
Who exactly is forced to act how exactly? Some of the episodes so far involve businesses' being sued to provide services to declared homosexuals, when the business owners don't wish to. Charitable organizations have been forced to stop facilitating adoptions because they will not place children with homosexuals. Government schools in some states now insist children be taught that homosexual behavior is positive in every way.
I'm unable to determine whether you are deliberately being disingenuous in your questions. These topics have been covered in depth for several years on FR, with examples from a number of U.S. states as well as foreign countries.
32
posted on
03/22/2013 9:29:30 AM PDT
by
Tax-chick
(Now with more LOL and less UNNNGH.)
To: ClearCase_guy
>> Ever see a Libertarian discuss religion?
Leftists and Liberals flying under the banner of libertarianism.
33
posted on
03/22/2013 9:30:30 AM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: ClearCase_guy
Libertarians [...] are very interested in powering over other people to get what they want. Like f'rinstance how?
Ever see a Libertarian discuss religion? Very rude. Very loud. No nuance. No real discussion. Just shouting down the other person because they're stupid and moralistic and evil and don't worship the flying spaghetti monster. Ridicule. Scorn. Derision.
Sure, it's not government via the end of a gun. It's not bureaucracy. It's not a legal/paperwork/coercive environment -- 'cause Libertarians don't believe in that stuff, right?
Right.
But I am convicned that Libertarians are incapable of existing in a truly civil (polite) society. Because they have a severe dislike for anyone who thinks differently than they do.
I say this based on 40 years experience dealing with Libertarians. I believe my lying eyes.
Let's say you're right about the incivility of libertarians. Does that make them wrong about limited government?
34
posted on
03/22/2013 9:30:50 AM PDT
by
JustSayNoToNannies
("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
To: SeekAndFind
Do Libertarians Really “Want a World Without Moral Judgments”?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DEFINATELY!
Most libertarians are immoral as they resist and resent SoCon values. But worse than that, they delude themselves thinking the Constitution is not a moral document and that government should not take a moral stand on things.
35
posted on
03/22/2013 9:32:32 AM PDT
by
Responsibility2nd
(NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
To: Gene Eric
The founders recognized the absolute need for a moral and religious people in order to have freedom.
Put simply, if you don’t self-govern,
you have to be governed.
“Either you’ll be governed by God, or, by God, you’ll be governed.”
36
posted on
03/22/2013 9:32:49 AM PDT
by
MrB
(The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
To: Gene Eric
Who exactly is forced to act how exactly? Catering halls, photographers, insurers, adoption agencies, churches, publishers, etc...
Clearly the libertarian position is that those entities should be free to discriminate against or in favor of gay "married" couples, straight couples, interracial couples, singles, or whoever the want.
37
posted on
03/22/2013 9:33:07 AM PDT
by
JustSayNoToNannies
("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
To: Tax-chick
Who exactly is forced to act how exactly? Some of the episodes so far involve businesses' being sued to provide services to declared homosexuals, when the business owners don't wish to. Charitable organizations have been forced to stop facilitating adoptions because they will not place children with homosexuals. Government schools in some states now insist children be taught that homosexual behavior is positive in every way.
Clearly the libertarian position is that those entities should be free to discriminate against or in favor of gay "married" couples, straight couples, interracial couples, singles, or whoever the want - and that there should be no government schools.
38
posted on
03/22/2013 9:34:38 AM PDT
by
JustSayNoToNannies
("The Lord has removed His judgments against you" - Zep. 3:15)
To: JustSayNoToNannies
>> Clearly the libertarian position is that those entities should be free
It’s a statist position to say they should not be free.
39
posted on
03/22/2013 9:36:13 AM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
In no way can libertarianism philosophically justify exercise of coercive power over another and in practice...wait...it's not in practice is it? Enlightened self interest is not the same thing as personal pleasure either but I suspect you knew that.
40
posted on
03/22/2013 9:37:45 AM PDT
by
Durus
(You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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