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Do Libertarians Really "Want a World Without Moral Judgments"?
Reason ^
| 03/22/2013
| Nick Gillespie
Posted on 03/22/2013 8:51:10 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
On March 15 in The New York Times, liberal journalist and author Richard Reeves wrote an op-ed about the new plan in New York City to dramatize the many negative effects of teen pregnancy on girls who give birth before graduating high school and outside of a stable two-parent unit. Billboards and other advertisements around the city, for instance, point out that unwed teen mothers are twice as likely to not finish high school as girls who don't give birth before graduating.
With many smart qualifications, Reeves makes a case for shaming regarding teen pregnancy and other behaviors, and he does it from a liberal POV:
A society purged of shame might sound good in theory. But it would be terrible in practice. We need a sense of shame to live well together. For those with liberal instincts, this is necessarily hard. But it is also necessary.
My issue is less with Reeves' views on public shaming per se and more on an aside he makes about libertarians:
Libertarians might want a world without moral judgments, in which teen pregnancy carries no stigma at all. And paternalists might want the state to enshrine judgments in law perhaps by raising the age of sexual consent or mandating contraception. True liberals, though, believe we can hold one another to moral account without coercion. We must not shy away from shame.
I submit to you that few statements are more wrong than saying "libertarians might want a world without moral judgments." From my vantage point, one of the things to which libertarianism is dedicated is the proliferation of moral judgments by freeing people up to the greatest degree possible to create their own ways of being in the world. To conflate the live and let live ethos at the heart of the classical liberal and libertarian project with an essentially nihilistic dismissal of pluralism and tolerance is a gigantic error. It's like saying that because religious dissenters want to abolish a single state church that they are anti-god.
As the anthropologist Grant McCracken argued in a 1998 Reason story called "The Politics of Plenitude," our world is characterized by a "quickening speciation" of social types and sub-cultures, a liberating reality that is typically mistaken for the end of the world and the end of all morality. McCracken notes that plenitude particularly aggrieves conservatives, because they mistake an urge to escape "a morality" for an attempt to abolish "all morality." He explains:
The right acts as if the many groups thrown off by plenitude harbor an anarchic tendency, that people have become gays, feminists, or Deadheads in order to escape morality. This is not the logic of plenitude. These people have reinvented themselves merely to escape a morality, not all morality. New communities set to work immediately in the creation of new moralities. Chaos does not ensue; convention, even orthodoxy, returns. Liminality is the slingshot that allows new groups to free themselves from the gravitational field of the old moralities they must escape. But liminality is almost never the condition that prevails once this liberation has been accomplished.
courtesy PBSReeves is no conservative. He's a devotee of John Stuart Mill and, I rush to add, has said many positive things about Reason over the years. But his characterization of libertarians as uninterested in moral judgments proceeds from a very conservative - and very profound - misunderstanding of what I think we are all about. This sort of thinking typically emanates from the right - how many of us have had conversations with conservatives who equate ending drug prohibition with a case not simply for occasional use of currently illegal drugs but for an absolute embrace of never-ending intoxication and stupefaction? - but apparently it harbors a home on the left as well. (Go here to read part of a debate I had with Jonah Goldberg a decade ago on the same basic topic).
Shame is certainly not the first thing that most libertarians I know reach for in high-minded policy discussions or less serious conversations. On the narrow question of reducing teen pregnancy - which has in any case reached historic lows over the past decades - it's far from clear the role the sort of public shaming enivisioned by New York authorities will play compared to, say, frank discussions of the harshly reduced opportunities faced by young mothers. Certainly, it may make certain policymakers and politicians feel good, but that is hardly any ground by which to analyze the efficacy of a given policy (to his credit, Reeves calls for a cost-benefit analysis himself).
But it's time to start swatting away random accusations of libertarians as nihilists simply because we don't sign on to every given moralistic agenda that is proposed or enacted in the name of the greater good. No less a buttoned-down character than Friedrich Hayek once wrote that "to live and work successfully with others requires more than faithfulness to one's concrete aims. It requires an intellectual commitment to a type of order in which, even on issues which to one are fundamental, others are allowed to pursue different ends." The libertarian commitment to true pluralism and tolerance is not easy to maintain, but it remains exactly the sort of gesture that allows for differing moralities to flourish and, one hopes, new and better ways of living to emerge.
TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: libertarianism; libertarians; morality
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To: Bikkuri
161
posted on
03/22/2013 6:41:04 PM PDT
by
manc
(Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
To: little jeremiah
162
posted on
03/22/2013 6:41:37 PM PDT
by
Bikkuri
(Molon Labe)
To: GeronL
libertopians
That is kind of catchy ;) I like it!
163
posted on
03/22/2013 6:48:31 PM PDT
by
Bikkuri
(Molon Labe)
To: GeronL
You are doing a fine job of bringing them all out of the cracks and crevices ;)
I may have to find my screencap of the homepage of TIS website to remind them that this is a Conservative website.. NOT a Repub or Lib one..
164
posted on
03/22/2013 6:52:21 PM PDT
by
Bikkuri
(Molon Labe)
To: manc
You forgot to mention Open Borders.... ;)
165
posted on
03/22/2013 6:54:58 PM PDT
by
Bikkuri
(Molon Labe)
To: ClearCase_guy
They don't like it when others coerce them but in my experience, Libertarians are forceful individuals who want what they want, and don't like it when folks get in their way. I've noticed that as well. They like to run roughshod over others but you danged well better not return the favor.
166
posted on
03/22/2013 7:05:44 PM PDT
by
metmom
(For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
To: little jeremiah
>> Its a form of mental illness to say Im a libertarian but I dont agree with the Libertarian Party.
Nonsense. I’m a registered Republican, but I don’t necessarily agree with the Republican Party.
Does the Democrat Party reflect democracy? Does the Republican Party reflect republicanism? Does the Libertarian Party reflect libertarianism? No to all three.
Is a woman damned to be an Obama supporter because the Women’s Vote went to Obama? Heck, we can berate women all day. They’re the ones that elected Obama, not the libertarians. They’re the one’s responsible for Planned Parenthood, not the libertarians. They’re the one’s responsible for gun grabbing, not the libertarians. More?
>> Ill say EXACTLY what I mean, stand for, and believe, and I get freaking gobbledy gook and slogans in return.
I gave you two Oxford definitions on statism and libertarianism. That’s not gobbledygook.
167
posted on
03/22/2013 7:17:28 PM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: GeronL
“libertopians”
I hope you didn’t copyright that ‘cause I’m gonna steal it :P
To: SeekAndFind
Sadly, it appears that most don't understand Liberty, even worse, they are terrified of it.
That is something the Statists on the Right share with the Statists on the Left: both are terrified of freedom and have no confidence in the ability of people to live a moral life without the bludgeon of statute.
Maybe it is projection, maybe they feel they need the comforting chains of legislation and regulation from the Congress to their Home Owner's Association, maybe they just fear that without that others will go ape (some would, but would be quickly dealt with--because people would have the freedom to do so).
When presented with an alternative to the nanny state, they revile it with even greater vigor.
How quickly they forget that those bent on living self destructive, criminal, or otherwise anti-social lives are going to practice their particular mayhem in disregard of the Law, even as that argument is used against encroachments on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
There is a cognitive disconnect there which indicates there are simply a lot more exceptional conservatives out there--they don't think their ox should be gored, but anyone else is fair game.
No wonder we are buried in laws and regulations that reach into our toilets, a low spot in our yard, our light sockets, and now the bellies of our schoolchildren.
169
posted on
03/22/2013 8:24:14 PM PDT
by
Smokin' Joe
(How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
To: Smokin' Joe
>> no confidence in the ability of people to live a moral life without the bludgeon of statute.
Well said.
170
posted on
03/22/2013 8:55:34 PM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: Gene Eric
Nonsense. Im a registered Republican, but I dont necessarily agree with the Republican Party.What about the Republican PLATFORM? There is a Libertarian Party PLATFORM. It is very clear and explicit (and longwinded and lengthy). It has changed in the last couple of years, they attempted to sort of smooth over/tone down the profligate immoral part but it's still clear. SO anyone who calls themselves libertarian but doesn't agree with much of the LP platform is being more than disingenuous, or stupid, or smokes too much weed.
You're a slippery talker, do you know that? Your rhetorical question "Does the Democrat Party reflect democracy?" is meaningless. Democracy is a rotten form of government anyway, and what we're discussing is not rhetorical or symbolic but real world stuff. Simple stuff, that any average Joe or Jane can understand if they put their attention on it. The Democrat Party makes it very clear what they stand for, what their agenda is, and what they do. Clear as day.
The R party has a decent plateform as far as it goes (which is not that far), but they don't live up to it.
The LP platform is as clear as it could be, although the lengthy longwinded part does have a lot of lofty utopian idealism to go along with the "Legalize every type of vice we can think of" and "let's open the borders and let illegals from every hellhole in the world walk on in".
Your statment:
Is a woman damned to be an Obama supporter because the Womens Vote went to Obama?
is another non-sequitor. Women as a group are not amorphous All One and it's not a party one can cnoose to belong to or identify with or not. So there is no comparison whatsoever. And your Oxford definitions leave much to be desired.
Libertarianism: an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.
Very vague. Makes no differentiation between State law and Fedgov law. One little sentence that does not address much of anything at all.
Statism: a political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:
Again, no differentiation between State/Fed law. Although "centralized" does sound Fedgov. Both definitions are short and too summarized and detail-less and symbolic to be of any real use in this discussion.
171
posted on
03/22/2013 9:51:20 PM PDT
by
little jeremiah
(Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
To: little jeremiah
>> You’re a slippery talker, do you know that?
You’re unnecessarily condescending, do you know that?
>> what we’re discussing is not rhetorical or symbolic but real world stuff.
And I’m talking about real definitions that you’re dismissing as insignificant and vague; yet, you use one of the terms as a pejorative.
Neither of the three parties in practice represent democracy, republicanism, and libertarianism. This is not slippery rhetoric, this is a fact.
>> Women as a group are not amorphous
Yeah, they predictably vote liberal.
Women’s Vote, Libertarian Party, Democrat Party, Republican Party — classifications of things not accurately representing the definitions of the words they stem from.
A libertarian does not necessarily embody the depravity so often charged. And it is intellectually lazy to insist otherwise.
172
posted on
03/22/2013 11:35:50 PM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: Lurker; little jeremiah
Never get your information about libertarians from liberals.That sounds all aphoristical and all, but the reality is that there is no fixed definition of "libertarian," any more than there is a fixed definition of "conservative." (We once tried to come up with a definition for "conservative" that covered all the regulars on the NC Forum, but eventually we gave up and went back to arguing about sports and barbecue.)
Everyone who considers himself "libertarian" defines the philosophy as being comprised of his personal beliefs.
173
posted on
03/23/2013 4:30:37 AM PDT
by
Tax-chick
(Now with more UNNNGH and less LOL.)
To: Smokin' Joe
174
posted on
03/23/2013 5:30:16 AM PDT
by
Lurker
(Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
To: Smokin' Joe
Maybe you would enjoy living next to someone who sells drugs from his front yard, prostitutes in the basement, gambling in the backyard and blasts heavy-metal music at 4am?
To: Bikkuri
176
posted on
03/23/2013 7:23:18 AM PDT
by
GeronL
(http://asspos.blogspot.com)
To: TheThirdRuffian
when?
The libertarians sure push for their drugs and free sex, but all the conservative stuff, privatizing the schools, never gets a mention it seems. The sex and drugs are their priority it seems
177
posted on
03/23/2013 7:26:14 AM PDT
by
GeronL
(http://asspos.blogspot.com)
To: little jeremiah
Sorry, but I'm familiar with your game. You say I didn't address your comment about state laws regarding a particular list of topics, but you omit mentioning that your response didn't address the list of topics in my initial comment.
So you shift the topic around, and then complain that I didn't respond to your non-response to my first comment. Why don't you reply to the issues I set forth the first time, which are listed again below?
They didn't need or institute a huge federal government, nor did they even bother to outlaw most drugs, nor did they have endless taxes, regulations, etc. And they certainly didn't feel the need to strictly restrict immigration, or require licenses and permits to do just about anything. Nor did they have many laws related to gun control. You could even own your own fighting ship armed with cannon as good as those on the US Navy frigates of the time.
As to your question of whether states can have laws regarding the topics of interest to you, yes, of course they can if those laws are consistent with the Federal constitution and the relevant state's constitution.
Whether or not they should have such laws is pretty much a question for the voters of those states. Personally speaking I think moral behavior comes from the character of the individuals in society, and in a free society the law ends up reflecting the values agreed upon by the people as a whole. Thus one would expect the people in different states to have different ideas about what their laws should be.
Trying to impose morality by law is a fruitless endeavor, unless you want to have a tyrannical government. That is why it is so important to leave room in society for and encourage the institutions, like churches and the family, which inculcate moral values in the young. Letting government take over that role is a recipe for disaster, as can be seen by looking at the neighborhoods and social groups where the influence of government is greatest.
Giving government the power to involve itself with and control everyone's daily life is a very bad idea. While it may seem that the moral viewpoint you hold could be promoted by government, in the end that is unlikely to happen. For a government to remain in power it must promote viewpoints that attain widespread support, which means setting standards lower and lower, or more inclusively, to gain support. So it is government that promotes "anything goes" since that is as effective a technique for gaining votes as is the "you'll get it for free" approach.
Once an expansive government like ours adopts a new moral viewpoint it then enforces that viewpoint on everyone. Which is why you see inns owned by devout Christians in Vermont who don't want to host a gay wedding being sued by the State of Vermont.
Reducing the scope and size of government leaves room for different viewpoints and lets people live by the moral codes they have learned through their churches and families without interference. Those beliefs, proven over centuries, are better able to be taught and learned in a society where the government is not able to oppose them in every aspect of daily life.
To: little jeremiah
I disagree with it on abortion (the reason Ron Paul is not a Libertarian) and immigration. There is the philosophy of libertarianism, and there is the Libertarian Party. Obviously, there is a huge amount of overlap, but they are not exactly the same.
179
posted on
03/23/2013 8:20:19 AM PDT
by
cdcdawg
To: GeronL
Go to cato.org. Read up. First topic on the left side of the page is education. Alternatively, you can continue to post about a topic you know nothing about.
180
posted on
03/23/2013 8:23:54 AM PDT
by
cdcdawg
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