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Do Libertarians Really "Want a World Without Moral Judgments"?
Reason ^
| 03/22/2013
| Nick Gillespie
Posted on 03/22/2013 8:51:10 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
On March 15 in The New York Times, liberal journalist and author Richard Reeves wrote an op-ed about the new plan in New York City to dramatize the many negative effects of teen pregnancy on girls who give birth before graduating high school and outside of a stable two-parent unit. Billboards and other advertisements around the city, for instance, point out that unwed teen mothers are twice as likely to not finish high school as girls who don't give birth before graduating.
With many smart qualifications, Reeves makes a case for shaming regarding teen pregnancy and other behaviors, and he does it from a liberal POV:
A society purged of shame might sound good in theory. But it would be terrible in practice. We need a sense of shame to live well together. For those with liberal instincts, this is necessarily hard. But it is also necessary.
My issue is less with Reeves' views on public shaming per se and more on an aside he makes about libertarians:
Libertarians might want a world without moral judgments, in which teen pregnancy carries no stigma at all. And paternalists might want the state to enshrine judgments in law perhaps by raising the age of sexual consent or mandating contraception. True liberals, though, believe we can hold one another to moral account without coercion. We must not shy away from shame.
I submit to you that few statements are more wrong than saying "libertarians might want a world without moral judgments." From my vantage point, one of the things to which libertarianism is dedicated is the proliferation of moral judgments by freeing people up to the greatest degree possible to create their own ways of being in the world. To conflate the live and let live ethos at the heart of the classical liberal and libertarian project with an essentially nihilistic dismissal of pluralism and tolerance is a gigantic error. It's like saying that because religious dissenters want to abolish a single state church that they are anti-god.
As the anthropologist Grant McCracken argued in a 1998 Reason story called "The Politics of Plenitude," our world is characterized by a "quickening speciation" of social types and sub-cultures, a liberating reality that is typically mistaken for the end of the world and the end of all morality. McCracken notes that plenitude particularly aggrieves conservatives, because they mistake an urge to escape "a morality" for an attempt to abolish "all morality." He explains:
The right acts as if the many groups thrown off by plenitude harbor an anarchic tendency, that people have become gays, feminists, or Deadheads in order to escape morality. This is not the logic of plenitude. These people have reinvented themselves merely to escape a morality, not all morality. New communities set to work immediately in the creation of new moralities. Chaos does not ensue; convention, even orthodoxy, returns. Liminality is the slingshot that allows new groups to free themselves from the gravitational field of the old moralities they must escape. But liminality is almost never the condition that prevails once this liberation has been accomplished.
courtesy PBSReeves is no conservative. He's a devotee of John Stuart Mill and, I rush to add, has said many positive things about Reason over the years. But his characterization of libertarians as uninterested in moral judgments proceeds from a very conservative - and very profound - misunderstanding of what I think we are all about. This sort of thinking typically emanates from the right - how many of us have had conversations with conservatives who equate ending drug prohibition with a case not simply for occasional use of currently illegal drugs but for an absolute embrace of never-ending intoxication and stupefaction? - but apparently it harbors a home on the left as well. (Go here to read part of a debate I had with Jonah Goldberg a decade ago on the same basic topic).
Shame is certainly not the first thing that most libertarians I know reach for in high-minded policy discussions or less serious conversations. On the narrow question of reducing teen pregnancy - which has in any case reached historic lows over the past decades - it's far from clear the role the sort of public shaming enivisioned by New York authorities will play compared to, say, frank discussions of the harshly reduced opportunities faced by young mothers. Certainly, it may make certain policymakers and politicians feel good, but that is hardly any ground by which to analyze the efficacy of a given policy (to his credit, Reeves calls for a cost-benefit analysis himself).
But it's time to start swatting away random accusations of libertarians as nihilists simply because we don't sign on to every given moralistic agenda that is proposed or enacted in the name of the greater good. No less a buttoned-down character than Friedrich Hayek once wrote that "to live and work successfully with others requires more than faithfulness to one's concrete aims. It requires an intellectual commitment to a type of order in which, even on issues which to one are fundamental, others are allowed to pursue different ends." The libertarian commitment to true pluralism and tolerance is not easy to maintain, but it remains exactly the sort of gesture that allows for differing moralities to flourish and, one hopes, new and better ways of living to emerge.
TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: libertarianism; libertarians; morality
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To: Tax-chick
Never get your information about libertarians from liberals.
141
posted on
03/22/2013 5:02:57 PM PDT
by
Lurker
(Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
To: freeandfreezing; Lurker; Tax-chick
I get my info about libertarianism from the Libertarian Party website and discussing with them on FR.
FF, you did not adress my comment about state laws against immorality such as sodomy, pornography/obscenity and the like. The Founding Fathers who wrote the Constitution knew about such laws, approved of them, and even wrote some of them.
Do you, as libertarian, think that states either CAN or SHOULD have such laws against immoral and behavior?
142
posted on
03/22/2013 5:33:15 PM PDT
by
little jeremiah
(Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
To: Ohioan
The Founding Fathers were libertarians, and basically so defined themselves. Do you really think that the Founding Fathers would agree with the parts of the LP platform wanting, for instance, no laws against porn, abortion, prostitutes, sodomy, all drugs (meth, whatever) and open borders with anyone who wants sauntering right in? The FF had no problem with states having laws against immoral behavior. No libertarians ever adress this, no matter how many times I ask them particularly about this. They totally ignore that, and as such, they all debate (I use that term loosely) dishonestly.
143
posted on
03/22/2013 5:38:41 PM PDT
by
little jeremiah
(Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
To: SeekAndFind; 185JHP; 230FMJ; AFA-Michigan; AKA Elena; APatientMan; Abathar; Absolutely Nobama; ...
144
posted on
03/22/2013 5:40:21 PM PDT
by
little jeremiah
(Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
To: little jeremiah
>> Do you really think that the Founding Fathers would agree with the parts of the LP platform
Absolutely not. The LP platform is literally a perversion of libertarianism.
145
posted on
03/22/2013 5:45:47 PM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: little jeremiah
I think that if two or more consenting adults want to film themselves having sex they should be free to do so. If consenting adults wish to purchase those films I believe they should be free to do so as well.
Clear enough for you?
146
posted on
03/22/2013 5:53:13 PM PDT
by
Lurker
(Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
To: little jeremiah
>> One of the many ways libertarians (large L or small) debate duplicitously
The statement on duplicity is inaccurate.
One is for statism if not for libertarianism, or somewhere between. Statism and libertarianism concern enforcement.
In debating morality, the contrast is drawn between liberalism and conservatism.
Homosexual 'marriage' law is Liberal Statism, or simply Leftism. It's advocates identify themselves as Progressives.
Just in comparison to the volume of law we contend with today, the FF were far closer to Conservative Libertarianism than the statist rule of today.
The depraved political elements of the Libertarian Party should not be a reflection on the definitive meaning of libertarianism.
Libertarianism: an extreme laissez-faire political philosophy advocating only minimal state intervention in the lives of citizens.
Statism: a political system in which the state has substantial centralized control over social and economic affairs:
147
posted on
03/22/2013 5:56:52 PM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
148
posted on
03/22/2013 5:58:58 PM PDT
by
Gene Eric
(The Palin Doctrine.)
To: ClearCase_guy
liberal tarians have more in common with the radical left than the right wing.
drugs
homosexuality
hell some have said incest woudl be alright and had one liberal tarian tell me so what if a sister wants to marry a brother.
cut the military
hell some supported Paul over getting rid of CIA, FBI
When they don;t get their way they are like little children and even if someone tells them they are not conservatives then they go full tantrum.
I;ve not read the thread yet but I;’m sure we’ll see maybe omne who will be defending liberal tarians but pretend not to be one and then post numerous times
149
posted on
03/22/2013 5:59:30 PM PDT
by
manc
(Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
To: GeronL
150
posted on
03/22/2013 6:03:45 PM PDT
by
manc
(Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
To: little jeremiah
your posts all make good points.
Founding fathers liberal-tarians, LOL, yea they really want drugs, homosexuality, sham marriages and America weaker because the military was cut
151
posted on
03/22/2013 6:08:44 PM PDT
by
manc
(Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
To: little jeremiah
(And I will not respond to Libs trying to redirect by what is in the pic...)
152
posted on
03/22/2013 6:27:46 PM PDT
by
Bikkuri
(Molon Labe)
To: Gene Eric
Well then, why do libertarians agree with the LP platform? Or rather, why don’t people who call themselves libertarians but disagree with the LP call themselves something else? It’s like calling myself a communist but then claiming that I disagree with what the Communist Party says.
153
posted on
03/22/2013 6:29:08 PM PDT
by
little jeremiah
(Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
To: manc
They talk about nanny state government and so on, but then when I ask is it okay for STATES, not the fedgov, to makes lawas against, for instance, sodomy or prostitution or incest, they NEVER EVER EVER answer.
EVER.
154
posted on
03/22/2013 6:30:27 PM PDT
by
little jeremiah
(Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
To: little jeremiah
Btw, I am still confused as to why Libs CANNOT understand, as stated on the Homepage of Freepublic, that this is a CONSERVATIVE website, NOT Lib(ertarian)(eral)... :p
Makes me wonder about their comprehension level ;)
155
posted on
03/22/2013 6:32:05 PM PDT
by
Bikkuri
(Molon Labe)
To: Gene Eric
Well, choose another name then, if you don’t agree with the LP. AFAIC, anyone calling themselves a libertarian, large L or small, agrees with the LP platform. If they don’t, then call thesmelves something else.
It’s a form of mental illness to say “I’m a libertarian but I don’t agree with the Libertarian Party”. And then if I ask them to delineate which things they disagree with, I never get much of an answer.
I think it’s that the LP has so stunk up the atmosphere people who agree with it just don’t want to openly admit it and claim that they don’t agree. Duplicity is the order of the day in discussions with Libertarians or libertarians. That has been my years long experience. I’ll say EXACTLY what I mean, stand for, and believe, and I get freaking gobbledy gook and slogans in return.
Life is too short to discuss things with people who use duplicity as debate tactic.
156
posted on
03/22/2013 6:34:52 PM PDT
by
little jeremiah
(Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
To: JustSayNoToNannies
Have you stopped beating your wife/hubby?
157
posted on
03/22/2013 6:35:22 PM PDT
by
Bikkuri
(Molon Labe)
To: Bikkuri
People who use drugs cannot think rationally.
158
posted on
03/22/2013 6:35:45 PM PDT
by
little jeremiah
(Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
To: little jeremiah
that is because they want to do anything and have it legal, all about them and what they want to do.
I’ve had some wacky debates and arguments with soem fo them.
incest alright
with animals alright
no military
no CIA, FBI
legal all drugs
sell drugs next to schools
get rid of sex age law
The bumper sticker slogan of Govt should tell people what to do camn be used for anything and it;s a bit like the homosexuals using their arguments of love, my business, doesn;t hurt you, get rid of Govt in marriage can all be used for any kind of marriage
In the end they;re calling for anarchy and are no different to the occupy tools.
The marriage topic is a classic
Govt out of it out when I’;ve asked about Govt is there and they decide on who get the house, the kids, the money, who pays what, marriage certificate, blood test they clam up.
I did however have one liberal tarian state how the rev should tell who gets the kids , like that woudl ever work as he can;t enforce it.
159
posted on
03/22/2013 6:38:05 PM PDT
by
manc
(Marriage =1 man + 1 woman,when they say marriage equality then they should support polygamy)
To: MHGinTN
160
posted on
03/22/2013 6:40:06 PM PDT
by
Bikkuri
(Molon Labe)
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