Aw... shucks...
SOMEone has to remember to bring the green Jello®!!
Posted on 01/27/2012 12:18:49 PM PST by mitchell001
Does the thought of Mitt Romney, a devout Mormon and Mormon leader, becoming President scare you? After reading this testimonial of an ex-Mormon ((http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_packham/why.html)), I am scared of Mitt Romney becoming President. Remember when Barack Obama was seeking the nomination in 2008, his 20 year attendance at Jerimiah Wright's church where radical preaching took place was glossed over by the American public and the press. I say we do not make the same mistake with Mitt Romney and his leadership role in the Mormon Church. In the GOP nominating process, let's explore Mitt's Mormon beliefs. Am I totally off base? Please read the link on the ex-Mormon above!
Jef, I’m gonna ask you a question about your religion ... oh wait, your religious instructions teach that you are to answer the question I should have asked, not the question I ask. So, I don’t need to ask a question because if you want to deceive me you have been trained to ‘answer the question you deem or your instructors deem I should have asked.’ Yes, Jeff, that is teaching young ‘missionaries’ how to be deceptive and deceitful, deceiving for ‘the faith’.
Does Mormanism scare me? NO. I am tolerant of all peace loving religions.
“Obamanism” scares me. So I am voting for the winner of the republican nomination, even if it is Romney. He is far better than Obama. So is Newt, and Santorum. Heck, even Paul would be a better president than Obama.
I expected the media to go after Romney’s religion, but not conservatives.
Nah. I'm just "bringing the discussion back to a central point from which I can teach" ... just "staying on point and task when confonted with a question that would lead me away" from my message.
You guys didn’t really read all of my response to that video, did you? If you did, then you seem to be doing the very type of thing you accuse others of...and if you didn’t, then please do so before you make these statements and accusations.
I clearly stated I did not agree with the methods taught in that video and in the past have, and currently do teach perspective and actual LDS missionaries differently.
But, despite the fact I disagree with his methods...he never told anyone to lie or decieve at all...he taught to reditrect people towards the message they are sent to give. I do not agree with it...because, as I stated, it can easily put people off, and it gives fuel to people who look for any reason to condemn the church. He taught them to answer the question with another question that would redirect them to what they want to teach.
That is a standard teaching and marketing practice...as I said, one I do not agree with.
I hope you both have a great evening, and a peaceful and spirit filled Sunday.
I agree with you.
I am LDS and do not support Romney. I am hoping for Santorum or Gingrich...though I think someone should ask Newt to repudiate his former ties with Alvin Toffler and his “3rd Wave” anti-constitutional ideology and writings from back in the 90s when Newt wrote a forward for Toffler’s book. That forward read as follows:
“The American challenge in leading the world is compounded by our Constitution… either we are going to have to rethink our Constitution, or we are going to have to rethink our process of making decisions.”
Those words were taken from a speech Newt gave to the Center for Strategic and International Affairs in 1995 and used as the forward to Toffler’s book where he indicates the Constitution is outdated.
Anyhow, if we fail to coalese behind and get a single conservative candidate, I too will vote for Mitt if he is the GOP nomineee...but only to keep Obama from a second term.
“...you have to learn to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another...” (Journal of Discourses Vol. 6 Page 4, 1844. Joseph Smith)In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
“I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3, 1844)
Do you, Jeff, really believe those teachings from your founding 'prophet' agree with what the entire Bible teaches? If you agree with that blasphemy from Smith then you need to ask yourself why you would claim to be a Christian, because such blasphemies are very uncomfortable for a Christian with God's Spirit in their human spirit, the earnest of their inheritance.
Hey...Mormon leaders have traditionally hankered after imposing some Mormon-based political rule upon the nation & world...So if the Mormons can politically scheme behind the scenes, then there's no hermetically sealed "religion vs. politics."
Bible-wise, there isn't either that kind of false dichotomy.
What do I mean by such Mormon schemes?
Time: June 4, 2007...during Romney's previous campaign.
Publishing source: Salt Lake Tribune,
Headline: Romney candidacy has resurrected last days prophecy of Mormon saving the Constitution
Excerpt: Note especially the bold face portion below:
WASHINGTON - It's Mormon lore, a story passed along by some old-timers about the importance of their faith and their country. In the latter days, the story goes, the U.S. Constitution will hang by a thread and a Mormon will ride in on a metaphorical white horse to save it. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints says it does not accept the legend - commonly referred to as the "White Horse Prophecy" - as doctrine. The issue, however, has been raised on those occasions when Mormons have sought the Oval Office: George Romney was asked about it during his bid in 1968, Sen. Orrin Hatch discussed it when he ran in 2000, and now Mitt Romney. "It is being raised," says Phil Barlow, a professor of Mormon history and culture at Utah State University. "I've heard it a bit lately." Romney says he doesn't believe in the supposed prophecy, nor did his father when he ran. "I haven't heard my name associated with it or anything of that nature," Mitt Romney told The Salt Lake Tribune during an interview earlier this year. "That's not official church doctrine. There are a lot of things that are speculation and discussion by church members and even church leaders that aren't official church doctrine. I don't put that at the heart of my religious belief." The disputed prophecy was recorded in a diary entry of a Mormon who had heard the tale from two men who were with Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, Ill. when he supposedly declared the prophecy. "You will see the Constitution of the United States almost destroyed," the diary entry quotes Smith as saying. "It will hang like a thread as fine as a silk fiber." Not only will the Mormons save the Constitution, under the prediction, but the prophecy goes further, insinuating that Mormons will control the government. "Power will be given to the White Horse to rebuke the nations afar off, and you obey it, for the laws go forth from Zion," the prophecy says.
In light of...
...Mormon "scriptures" like D&C 103:7, where Lds "saints" are promised to "possess...the earth...forever and ever"...
...and statements like Lds "apostle" Orson Hyde claiming "Mormonism will rule every nation"...
...and Lds "apostle-turned-'prophet'" John Taylor saying that Mormons would become "political...saviors"
...The White Horse prophesy is one of arrogant Mormon control.
IOW, you're intolerant of some religious expression on these threads.
Doesn't "intolerance" = bigotry?
Tell, us, Pollster? Where you do you go for some elitist self-issued license that allows you to officially register...
...displeasure...
...accusations...
...liberal-like labels...
...all the while expressing complete intolerance?
You know Pollster, you may know a number of grassroots Mormons (like I do)...
...You may know a few Mormon political leaders with similar values...
...but there's a group of Mormon leaders you don't know...
...and that's the general authorities of the Mormon church.
And in fact, it wouldn't even take a majority of such general authorities to be concerned about. All it would take is the top three -- the three who form what is called the Mormon "First Presidency" -- including their "prophet."
Mormons pick their next "prophets" -- once they get to a certain level -- by the calendar. All it would take is one elderly Mormon "prophet" who might be in an early Alzheimer stage or some senile-based decision to creep in -- and presto -- a Mormon POTUS is at the 100% beck & call as a "puppet" of that "prophet."
Mormon leaders haven't exactly been "shy" about this sort of potential puppetry...read the chart below and become literate on Mormon leader bleedover history into politics...(And, keep in mind, that Joseph Smith himself declared himself to be a POTUS candidate the year he died)
Florida voters: Read the chart below
| Lds Leader | Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title) | Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words) | |
| John Taylor | Lds 'Prophet' #3 | “The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto…[so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours…and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862) | |
| Orson Hyde | President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875) | “What the world calls ‘Mormonism’ will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53) | |
| Heber J. Grant | Lds 'Prophet' #7 | "Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984) | |
| Harold B. Lee | Lds 'Prophet' #11 | ...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989) | |
| Spencer Kimball | Lds 'Prophet' #12 | "President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983) | |
| What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father? | Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets') | "Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984) | |
| Ezra Taft Benson | Lds 'Prophet' #13 | Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: “…remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet…” (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #5 | 5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney? Ya hear that Jon Huntsman?) | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #9 | 9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt? Still listening, Jon?) | |
| Benson (cont'd) | Fundamental #10 | 10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt? What say ye Jon?) | |
| Mitt Romney as POTUS??? | Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do? | The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."] |
Jeff, you darn well know that Mormons are NOT taught to be forthright on all kinds of touchy theological matters. There are degrees of deception, Jeff. Allow me to just cite four common tactics in discussions with Mormons...I'm not even trying to be comprehensive about this...'cause I could list these for days & weeks:
Example #1: On becoming gods...Mormons tend to beat around the obvious bush and mention things like becoming "godly" or "christlike" or they use the "heirs" references in the Bible to claim that = becoming gods.
Example #2: On believing/worshiping multiple gods, they suddenly switch to a semi-trinitarian sounding position and trot out a reference to the "godhood" so they can try to maneuver around being seen as polytheists.
Example #3: Mormons say they disagree with polygamy; yet know darn well it's practiced from a Mormon theological perspective every time a widower takes yet another wife to be "sealed for eternity" in their temples...which per Mormon doctrine, would make that man out to be an eternal polygamist! (So, it's "OK" if polygamy is "colonized" on another planet -- and it's "OK" if polygamy is re-instituted on this planet once the Mormon jesus returns...per Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie...but it's not "ok" beyond that? Mormons are hypocrites in this area!)
Example #4: You, Jeff, coupled with oft' Lds-sourced articles will positively reference Christians...or these Lds-sourced articles will tout, "We're Christians, too." Yet for much of Mormon history, to be a Christian was a very negative thing -- and Mormon leaders let that be known. It's still mainstream Mormon doctrine to regard all Christians & their denominations as in apostasy.
Tell us, Jeff, why Mormons then want to become "apostate-Christians, too?" (Is it because you are envious of the "brand?")
Even beyond history -- Mormons can't scrape away extreme negative references toward Christians and Christian churches like Joseph Smith - History vv.18-19 in the Pearl of Great Price...or D&C 1:30...or 1 Nephi 14:9-10 in the Book of Mormon. They can't scrape these things away because they are Mormon "scriptures." Yet no Mormon critiques these references -- letting them stand as is -- and in fact, winds up paying for their dissemination around the world.
In my next post, I'll provide a word picture on this...but, Jeff, the bottom line here is that Christians feel that Mormons will say one thing to their face -- and say something similar as the "PR" version of posts you tend to say on these threads -- all the while believing and slandering Christians in extreme negative ways via your tithe...allowing Lds, Inc. to do all the "dirty work" for you.
Example #5: Lds missionary 'bait & switch' tactics: What do I mean?
Well, a Mormon missionary will lead with the Book of Mormon with contacts. If contacts read such a book, would they discover most of the actual central teachings of Mormonism? Not on your life!
The Book of Mormon has ZILCHO content/teachings about all the "later" developments of Joseph Smith...such as...
* God is a lower-level god who god assigned the "god job" for the Kolob-Earth district
* He was a man who earned his way to godhood; therefore, you can, too
* Temples are for baptizing dead people -- which Mormons hear from time-to-time in those temples (necro-immersing & necromancy)
* Any kind of "pre-existence"
* 3 degrees of glory
* Hell isn't eternal -- damnation just means "damned up"
* Marriage & families are for eternity [imagine the Book of Mormon missing out on that one]
* Sealings & endowments & temple recommends & temple ritual language
* A mom-god or 2 or 3 or a harem of them
Anyway, no wonder there's "misunderstandings" of what Mormonism is! Here they do a bait-and-switch, asking people to pray about stuff that doesn't even record many of their primary teachings!!! It's downright deceptive.
Beyond that, Mormons are rarely forthright about a LOT of their "tucked-away" beliefs:
* A 'mom-god' in heaven
* That spirits and intelligences -- including you and me -- are just as "co-eternal" from the past as God and Jesus!
* Satan is our "elder brother" -- and Jesus' kid brother
* etc. etc etc
In my last post, I referenced in Example #4 a "word picture" that would convey what I meant:
Let's say you're female and 19.
Let's say your fiance was a member of another church in another town.
And say, once a month she would arrive at your home and you'd both proceed to head off to a pre-marital counseling program started by your local Lds bishop.
And let's say that every time your fiance would talk to your family members, she would accumulatively find out what this bishop really thought of her...in fact, she pieced together various comments that your bishop thought she was...
...a "blasphemer..."
...an "apostate..."
..."corrupt..."
..."of Anti-Christ..."
...and her most cherished beliefs were an "abomination"...
...Oh sure, these "comments" weren't usually directed to her one-on-one in her face...
...but accumulatively, from talking with your family members, they would document that these were the exact terms he used...
...and these were just the most common...there were other terms, a few worse...
...and then when she directly confronted the bishop if these things were true, he didn't deny any of them.
Now do you honestly think for a moment, Jeff, that your argument to your "bride"...
...when you persistently failed to defend her before the bishop or before your family members...
...an argument that for every one of these critiques the bishop said of her...
...he happened to say 1,000 things positive about other subjects that nothing that have to do with her...
...is going to give you "brownie points" in her eyes?
Wouldn't that actually make things worse? I mean, if you were right in this instance -- that your bishop doesn't spend the rest of his time downgrading anybody else -- well, doesn't that mean your bride-to-be has been singled out for the harshest treatment that your bishop would dish out upon others?
The "bride to be" in this account is the "Bride of Christ," His church.
The accusations of your leaders are hurled at the bride of Christ, which the apostle Paul said would bring "glory to God THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, FOREVER AND EVER, AMEN." [Ephesians 3:21]
And you defend the bishop in this account, and NOT the honor of the Bride.
Tell us, Jeff, what kind of a bridegroom does that make you? (Especially in her eyes?)
We also don't appreciate, Jeff, how...
...you and other Mormons imply the apostle Paul was a "false prophet" in Eph. 3:21...
...that there was a period of say 1500-1700 years...
...that the church didn't bring glory to God...
...and that those years included the 18th century when this country's founding fathers brought into fruition what you referenced to svcw in post #169:
"...who want America to adhere to and follow the foundational republican values and morals as set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution."....
Shame on you and all true-believing Mormons, Jeff! The Mormon church labels these very founders of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution -- at least the Christians in this grouping -- as "apostates."
One of the first things they teach you in this cult is that it is greater sin to lose a convert, than it is to lie or mislead about a facet of the mormon cult that might offend the prospective convert and prevent them from joining. The explanation is that they are not ready for the higher secrets of the mormon cult until they have been prepared...called "milk before meat", but indoctrination and preconditioning by any other name is still what it is.
Anyone who googles "ex-mormon" will find thousands of support groups for the people exiting this cult who have had their lives forever altered by it. There are hundreds of thousands of testimonies and documents from the mormon hierarchy there for anyone to read.
So, Jeff, you train/"teach"...what?
Lds high school students via "seminary" (prospective) -- and train Lds missionaries in your regional area, eh?
Well, note the last row in the chart below re: the 60-year Mormon missionary training legacy re: their "upstanding" regard for Christians and Christian churches!
Mitt Romney, Dec, 2007, speaking @ the George Bush Presidential Library: "I believe in my Mormon faith and I endeavor to live by it. My faith is the faith of my fathers – I will be true to them and to my beliefs."
Snapshot of Joseph Smith’s Slanderous Invectives vs. Christian Sects |
Mormon Source[Note: Most of these are Mormon ‘scriptures'. In fact, First three rows below are Lds 'scripture' & therefore cannot be rug-swept any more than a Jew might try to take three commandments off of the very tablets of stone Moses brought down from the mountain] |
| “...which of all the sects was right… must join NONE of them, for they were ALL WRONG… those professors were ALL CORRUPT…” | Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price |
| ...“which of all the sects was right…ALL their CREEDS were an ABOMINATION in his sight…they teach for doctrines the commandments of MEN…” | Joseph Smith – History vv. 18-19. – Lds "scripture" Pearl of Great Price |
| Mormon church the only ‘Christ-sanctioned’ church on earth: “…the foundation of this [Mormon] church…the ONLY true and living church on the face of the whole earth” [Obvious ‘scorched earth’ implication: All other churches are false and dead] | Lds “scripture” Doctrines & Covenants 1:30 |
| Direct question asked of Joseph Smith: 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?" Answer from Lds "prophet" Joseph Smith: 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." | Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119 [Not “scripture” – but still publicly spoken by the Mormon ‘living prophet’ and published by a later Mormon ‘living prophet,’ Joseph Fielding Smith – via a publisher owned by the Mormon church – Deseret News Press, 1938] |
| “In 1952…the first official proselyting plan was sent to missionaries throughout the world…It included seven missionary discussions that emphasized…[four topics, one of them being]…THE APOSTASY and Restoration…” [This makes it almost 60 years that Mormon church missionaries, now numbering 52,000, have formally emphasized in its training & door to door saturation a priority in bashing the worldwide Christian church as “apostates” (100% AWOL)] | Our Heritage: A Brief History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints p. 116, 1996 |
Christians -- Protestants, Orthodox and Catholics everywhere...doesn't it just make you want to "rush out" and inspire you to vote for somebody who treats you one way to your face, but firmly adheres to the above as their "bottom-line" belief system? /sarc
SOME calling it teaching; most call it misinformation.
SOMEone has to remember to bring the green Jello®!!
Let me pop some corn first...
Any o’ them Quakers named Fancher?
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