Gingrich 'prepared to take the heat' with talk of amnesty ("Let's be humane in enforcing the law")

The Los Angeles Times ^ | 2011-11-22 | Kim Geiger

[Borax Queen]

I was also wondering how Newt would test to make sure his model citizens went to church. He kept repeating over and over the part about how if these innocent criminals attended church, they could stay. Would that be one of BO’s churches, or what? And what would the ACLU say....

[Notary Sojac]

How long until someone suggests that “we’ve gotta stop all those n———s from voting twice for Obama.”

[Notary Sojac]

By the way, well done for picking my favorite artist’s name for your handle.

[DoughtyOne]

You mean like Texas? I’ve lived there most of my life and I said earlier I have held your position for most of my life as well.

Okay, then (and not to be ofensive) it seems to me that the illegal immigrant activists have met with some success when it comes to their arguments and your morphed views on this matter.

By your intimation, your views on this matter have changed.  Mine have not.  If anything they have solidified on roughly the position you stated you used to hold.  In my respone, I'll explain why.

I am not talking about the low-lifes that come over here and are looking for an easy ride or worse. I’m talking about people whose one crime is that they came here, and live here without going through the proper channels. Yes, it’s against our law but how criminal is it?

Does it rank on the level of murder? Not for me, but perhaps we should ask the victims of the murders, rapes, and other serious crimes being committed by these people.  And while I have used the generic blanket context here, it is in fact legitimate because of the flood of peope who came here illegally, and thereby enabled the bad to come with them.  Every illegal therefore bears some degree of responsibility for what THEY USHERED IN.  You didn't do it.  I didn't do it.  Other U.S. Citizens for the most part, didn't do it.  THEY did.  Every illegal that came here, enabled the bad players to do what they did after getting here.

They are not just simple innocents.  They are enablers.  They were and are the destroyers.

Thirty years ago the San Fernando Valley was a white middle-class bastion of middle-class America.  It was a vast community of thriving businesses and Americana, if you will.  Today there are still some pockets of this but by and large the 3.5 million middle class people who lived there, were replaced by 3.5 million poorer people from Mexico and Central and South America.  Places where I and other middle-class people used to shop and do business, are now occupied by retailers who have changed their sineage to Spanish.  At night it isn't safe for me to travel into areas where I used to be safe at all hours just thirty years ago.  The housing in the region has gone down.  Van Nuy's boulevard looks more like Tijuana every time I drive down it.  Frankly I don't drive down it because it's so demoralizing to see what the L.A. City and County, State of California, and federal leadership have ushered in here.  While it's not third-world level conditions, it certainly isn't the first world conditions that used to be present there.  Some of these streets with high palm and fur trees were extremely nice years ago.  Today old whacked out cars line the streets, shopping baskets line the sidewalks, and the buildings that can't bear the rent they used to, evidence disrepair and an expanding ghetto-like status.

Portions of West L.A. have seen the same thing happen.  Areas that were beautiful just twenty years ago, two story recently painted and well kept up multiple family dwellings, now have cracks in their walls, no grass, paint worn off, shopping baskets on or near the side-walks.  We're not talking about a few blocks here and there.  We're talking about miles upon miles of urban blight.

Let me ask you this:

Let’s say Obama were to succeed in making this the United Soviet States of Amerika and most of our freedoms were hampered and there was no hope for ever making enough money to support your family. Then let’s say Canada was a free nation and you really wanted to take your family there but so did everyone else. You find out it’s a 15 year wait and meantime, your kids have very little to eat and you have no way to get them the medical care they need nor the decent education to succeed. Would it really be evil of you to sneak your family into Canada and try to be a hard worker and provide for your family? Sure after 20 years of you living there Canada could throw you back to the Soviet States and say you are nothing but a parasite. That would be within their rights. In reality though you were trying to make a life for your family not be a leach.

Exept that leachdom is undeniable exactly what they at least in part actually achieved.  They caused a heavy burden on our health care.  Citizens services were cut back as a result.  Facilities and equipment was negatively impacted because an extremely large population base couldn't pay their own way.  Manpower, equipment, infrastructure, services including emergency services were cut back.  Los Angeles lost seven trauma centers in about 15 months a few years back.  Why?  Because the illegals were too prevalent, and those facilities couldn't continue to take a loss and keep their doors open.  What happened to the services available to citizens?  Those services no longer existed.  In those areas, citizens unfortunate enough to desperately need quick medical intervention, could no longer get it.  The farther you travel when you need immediate care, the more people die.  Citizens were dying.  They still are.  Who comes here to lament their loss as you have the poor plight of the Mexican national?  Frankly, not one damned person.

What happened to our schools?  Children here who couldn't speak English monopolized our schools.  While citizen children sat in their seats reading half the day, the teachers taught English to the children of illegal aliens.  The progress of our own citizen children took a back seat to the education of foreign nationals.  We couldn't build schools fast enough.  About three years ago, the largest single building project in the United States other than Boston's Big-Dig was the building campaign in the Los Angeles Unified School District.  We were busy building half a billion (yes with a "B") dollar edifices almost completely abandoned to the children of illegal immigrants, while our tax-paying citizens paid thousands of dollars each year to obtain a private education for their children.  This on top of the burden of having to pay for state of the art facilities their own children could never use.  Who comes here to lament this negative impact on our children and their parents, their family infrastructure, the reduction in their quality of life?  Frankly, not one damned individual.

Who pays for the health care of the children of illegal immigrants?  We have opened up clinics in the LAUSD.  Children of illegal immigrants get services there, or are gifted with state and federal dollars for services more complex.

We sponsor a massive transit system in Los Angeles.  Who rides the buses?  A significant portion of the riders are illegal immigrants.  Who pays for that?  Your gas tax dollars do.

Your health care rates are higher than they should be.  The services you get are less than they should be.  Your children's access to the schools we all pay for, is non-existant.

Then when people try to bring some sanity to the discussion, folks blame us for being so non-caring.  I'll quite being so non-caring when the last dollar is paid on the public bonds that have been taken out to pay for these new schools, are paid off decades from now.  I'll be more caring when over 950% of the working age men in Los Angeles can read and write at a functional business level again.  Presently that figure is below 50%.

That’s where I’m coming from. They aren’t all just a bunch of parasites, they’re people and their cases need to be looked at individually. Do you disagree?

Frankly, yes.  The only looking into that, that needs to be done, is to find the answer to one question.  Do you have documentation?  If yes, great.  Welcome.  If not, adios.  You are not welcome.

We are swamped.  For your logic to work, we would need to open up the U.S. to every poor person on the planet, so they could better their lives here.  They all have children.  Every one of these cases would be dire.  We would be just as responsible for them, as we would the cases of every Mexican and Central and South American that are here now.  Otherwise, we could be racists.  We can't let on set of people treat us like a door mat, then not let everyone treat us like a door mat.  It wouldn't be fair.  And of course, that's our ultimate goal here.  We must be fair to people who don't care about us any more than to destroy us.

Since when did it become the responsiblity of you and I to aleviate the problems of every other citizen of planet earth, who could find a way to become a destroyer in the United States?

If you want to advocate that our government lower the boom on the Mexican government, and demand they get their house in order, I'm right there with you.  The way to better the lives of Mexicans, Central and South Americans is to do it in place in their countries.  It is not to destroy the U.S. in order to give them a break.

Doing what you seem to want would wind up doing one thing, destroying us, in the effort to fix them.

I'm not buying in.

[moehoward]

That's some spot on analysis.

"They will vote Republican."

Which is exactly what the Krieble foundation hypothesizes. I wonder if Newt has even read what is listed on their website before he said he supports their position on immigration.

[HANG THE EXPENSE]

What are the circumstances.

[yorkie]

BQ, you know - going to a church would no more make a person a Christian (or ‘good’ illegal), than standing in a garage would make one a car!

But, this morning, on FNC, Mike Reagan (Ronald’s son) supported Gingrich’s stand on immigration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJOEIF9PaDY

[BillyBoy]

>> Keep it up and you will get to see 4 or MORE years of these: <<

Yes, clearly because Donald Trump Rick Perry Newt Gingrich is the ONLY man in the america "with the guts to take on Obama in 2012", so we all MUST get behind the designed establishment RINO this months or it will be "four more years of Obama"

Sorry, this is the PRIMARY and I'm under no obligiation to support sucky candidates because their fan clubs on FR want me to.

You want to get rid of Obama? Run a decent conservative against him that voters LIKE.

[Borax Queen]

Frig.....

Well, I love how the anti-U.S. sovereignty candidates try to invoke Pres Reagan, since he supported (or got duped) amnesty.
They remind me of all the Communists who just say “we haven’t been able to do it right, let’s try again.”

[DoughtyOne]

It wasn’t 3 million..it was 300,000...

If you wish to look it up, you'll find out that the Amnesty of 1986 wound up seeing around 3.5 million people become naturalized as a result.

When they were trying to get support for the Amnesty, they stated there were only 1 million illegals here.  After the fact, the illegals came out of the wood-work to sign up.

estimates of naturalized people  3.0 million at link  (Estimates vary.  I have seen them as high as 3.5 millon)

...seems to me then 2 to 3 million booted today is about equal for the numbers here now.

Even the government and illegal support acvtivists claim there are 11 to 12 million illegals in country today.  That flies in the face of the fact that a 2001 correction by the 2000 Census pegged their numbers at 9.0 million in that census.  Even a Time magazine cover story pegged the entries into the U.S. a few years into the Bush administration, at 3.5 million per year.  I am aware that during on nine month period around that time, that 900,000 illegals were taken into custody (in just one sector) while coming across the U.S. border. Border agents traditionally peg their catch to flow ratio at about 10 to 20%.

The idea that we have only 11 or 12 million illegals in country today, flies in the face of reality.  Nobody knows for sure, but you can take to the bank a number somewhere between 25 to 35 million people.  It may be even higher.

Imagine if we were to legalize them, and they be able to do what other naturalized citizens can, namely bring in fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, nephews, neices...  You start with 30 million, let each bring in an avearge of five people, and watch the birth explosion, in short order your talking about 150 million new citizens.

Sound good to you?

But whatever...are you going to deport 30 million and how? even if you cut off their foodbag do you really think they’re going back south? Especially when there’s a push for states to each handle their own immigration? That will simply move them around.

The federal government has the responsibility to set immigration status.  This IS NOT a states rights issue, pure and simple.  Other states would have to deal with the problems crated by single-state legislation on the matter.  Not good.

Yep, no work, no services, no free ride, all of a sudden Mexico looks pretty good.  Even illegals like to eat.

I am for getting immigration back on the table and moving...right now nothings being done.

Me to.  Time to move them out.  Whatever bad repercussions resulted would be due to the way these people set themselves up for failure.  I wouldn't necessarily like it, because I like people.  I don't want to see them hurt.  I didn't force them to break the law.  It's not my problem.

I support U.S. Citizens and their rights.  All others can stand in line.

[DoughtyOne]

Agreed. After this problem festering for the last 16 years, there’s no real excuse for not fully understanding what’s at stake here.

We are not being uncaring by demanding our laws be enforced. It is uncaring not to consider the plight of the U.S. Citizens first.

[Azzurri]

Newt Gingrich = politically tone deaf

NEXT!

[Electric Graffiti]

"Filthy animals is about right. Piss on them, they don’t give a rip about you or the USA. They would run you down in a heartbeat to get away if necessary."

Yup. We're talking about the sludge that Mexico doesn't want or care about.

Some MORON talking about human dignity......this is an INVASION, A WAR. They're marching over the border with no resistance. They're TAKING everything in sight.[Hell, they caused the housing bubble thanks to the scumbag DEMONCRATS].....they're breeding us out of house and home. KILLING THE COUNTRY AND OUR CULTURE.

It's really not a tough one to figure out.

[ak3647]

Ronald Reagan gave blanket amnesty to over 2 million illegal immigrants in 1986. If Reagan were running for President as a Republican today, he wouldn’t pass the litmus test for ideological purity that is demanded of today’s GOP candidates. In fact, if you take into consideration that Reagan also signed the 1986 Machine Gun ban into law (the largest gun control act of the past 40 years), Ronnie would probably be derided as a “socialist liberal” by many on FR today.

There isn’t a single GOP candidate in this field who hasn’t made a remark that bucks the conservative trend in some way, shape or form. From Rick Perry’s support for in-state tuition for illegals to Herman Cain saying that abortion is a personal choice that shouldn’t be made by the government (and then flip-flopping when he caught flak for it), every one of the Republican candidates has at least one instance where they fail the litmus test. If some here are demanding 100% ideological purity, then be prepared to have an empty podium next to Obama during the general election debates because there will be no Republican candidate to fill it. There is no Republican candidate who is 100% ideologically pure, who is free of all imaginable flaws and hasn’t made a single gaffe.

Many Freepers insist on having the perfect candidate and won’t settle for anything less. I don’t get it. Tell me, where is this “perfect Republican” you all are dreaming of? I certainly don’t see one, at least not one who is running for President.

[MiddleEarth]

Thank-you for your thorough yet respectful response. I understand this is a sensitive subject and I appreciate someone willing to discuss it without getting angry.

First of all, I am in no way for opening up our borders to Mexico, not by a long shot. We need some way to keep more people from coming in here. And no, the illegals have not had success with their arguments, in fact my change has come about more by seeing the vitriol with which so many on our side talk about the illegals. I saw that our anger has turned us (not you specifically) somewhat irrational and certainly unChristian.

I also understand how the flood of illegals has caused a lot of problems for the US. I’m not against sending many of them back either. I’m saying that some have been here for so long and are really good people who are not trying to drain our resources. I’m also saying every person has dignity and needs to be treated as such no matter what we decide to do with them. I don’t think you disagree with that.

You have said that those who come here illegally have ushered in the violence and crimes that the thugs from Mexico have brought forth. In my Canada scenario, if you had gone to Canada with your family illegally along with millions of other Americans, would you be responsible for the murderers and gang members who also came into Canada illegally from the US? I wouldn’t blame you and your kids for those criminals.

I think many illegals need to be deported but not all and we need to start documenting everyone and we most certainly need to secure our borders. Most of all, we need to remember that each of us is an individual and Jesus didn’t say, “Whatsoever you did to the least of my American citizens, you did to Me.” Whatsoever we do to the least of His people...

Again, this is not saying you don’t think that too but I’m saying in general. I have seen such down right hatred for illegals that THAT is what has changed my view. Hatred is not from God.

Anyway, off to Thanksgiving duties so I’m not sure when I’ll be back. Happy Thanksgiving to you!

[BobL]

“You should be ashamed of yourself. Sounds like you’re too proud? “

I’m not proud, I’m EMBARRASSED, to have a Republican governor calling himself a conservative that:

1) Called me and people like me HEARTLESS.
2) Sucks up to Mexico
3) Makes life so COMFORTABLE for ILLEGALS that he has yet to be sued by this administration
4) Has essentially let my neighborhood get DESTROYED, much like what happened in much of California.

But you’re more than welcome to love him....

[bigdaddy45]

What do you mean “what are the circumstances?” You clearly stated that you don’t believe the native-born children of Mexican citizens are American citizens. I’m a native born child of parents who are German Citizens. Do you not consider me a citizen?

What are the circumstances that you believe would differentiate us?

[DoughtyOne]

Thank-you for your thorough yet respectful response. I understand this is a sensitive subject and I appreciate someone willing to discuss it without getting angry.

I think you should know that while I am patient on this subject, I'm am running out of patience.  Truth be told, I have had it with people who can think of every rationale in the book to excuse what the long term illegal has done here, but can't seem to find a rational reason to put our foot down and stop it.  If someone has screwed us over for ten, twenty, thirty, or more years, they've somehow achieved a status where some folks want to now gift them the keys to the golden gates, because they've been so good at screwing my parents, myself, my wife, my children, and their children, not to mention my sibling's and friend's families over.  How that seems logical to some people is beyond me.  At some point, it is rational for people like me to be furious about what has taken place.  I reached that level by the mid-1980s, and here we are nearing 2012, and I'm still having folks tell me I'm just not very caring.

How caring was it for me to spend upwards of $20,000 for private schooling for my young children, when we couldn't afford to purchase a home or decent vehicles during that time frame?  I couldn't use the local schools to educate my children, so we forked over education funds that should have been available for other things.  Now you want to reward people who were around then, because "It's just the right thing to do."

How much equity did my family lose out on?  How many vacations did we have to pass up?  How negatively was our standard of living impacted?  Does that negative impact still exist today, and to what extent does it still exist?  We're talking decades here.

This may be academic to you, but I can honestly see a lasting impact on my family that goes back over 25 years.  I don't dwell on it.  In fact this is the first time I have thought of it this way.  Around 1980, I lost out on the ability to purchase a brand new home for my young family.  I did so because finances were tight back then, and my kids were in private school.  Within ten years the property we just missed being able to purchase, increased 400% in value. That equity would have served my family incredibly well.  The payments on that home would have been less than our rent.  The presures on that family were increased.  This played into a failed marriage.  It wasn't the main problem, but family dynamics are significantly impacted by negative influences such as this.

Then folks try to float the idea, I'm not a caring guy.  Wow.

First of all, I am in no way for opening up our borders to Mexico, not by a long shot. We need some way to keep more people from coming in here. And no, the illegals have not had success with their arguments, in fact my change has come about more by seeing the vitriol with which so many on our side talk about the illegals. I saw that our anger has turned us (not you specifically) somewhat irrational and certainly unChristian.

I want you to think about what I wrote up above.  Despite what I wrote up there, I do live well today.  That doesn't mean that this wasn't a significant impact on my family and I.  How "Christian" is it of you to explain to me what Christianity is all about, while ignoring the fact that $20,000 was siphened off my young family's income, as a direct result of illegal aliens in my community?

At a time when I was paying the full boat to cover my family's health care bills, the illegals were getting their services for free.

I also understand how the flood of illegals has caused a lot of problems for the US. I’m not against sending many of them back either. I’m saying that some have been here for so long and are really good people who are not trying to drain our resources. I’m also saying every person has dignity and needs to be treated as such no matter what we decide to do with them. I don’t think you disagree with that.

Where was my "deserved" dignity in the 1980s?  BTW, you should realized that amnesty was granted in 1986 - 1990.  What we're discussing here, are the people who gamed our system directly after that, to come here so they could get amnesty the next time.  That's willful planning to game our system.  I'm supposed to be sympathetic to people doing that?  Why not claim that we should feel sympathy for bank robbers too, since their families could certainly use the funds?  What's the diff?

You have said that those who come here illegally have ushered in the violence and crimes that the thugs from Mexico have brought forth. In my Canada scenario, if you had gone to Canada with your family illegally along with millions of other Americans, would you be responsible for the murderers and gang members who also came into Canada illegally from the US? I wouldn’t blame you and your kids for those criminals.

I hate to break it to you, but I respect the laws of the land.  I don't break them.  I don't try to justify breaking them.  If I don't like them, I try to get the laws changed, or the leadership changed so that laws will be favorably impacted.  For that reason I'm not going to try to play into a scenario where illegals, bank robbers, murderers, rapists, or any other criminal can be sympathized with when they break laws.

I think many illegals need to be deported but not all and we need to start documenting everyone and we most certainly need to secure our borders. Most of all, we need to remember that each of us is an individual and Jesus didn’t say, “Whatsoever you did to the least of my American citizens, you did to Me.” Whatsoever we do to the least of His people...

There's no need to document illegals.  If they aren't here legally, they get sent back home.  PERIOD!  If they have bought a home here, liquidate it and return the funds to the U.S. Treasury.  It was purchased in no small part with funds this person didn't have to pay because they could get goods and serviced for free, that I and my family couldn't.  Why should I feel sorry for them?  Good grief.  Do we allow bank robbers to keep all the goods they purchase with stolen money?  Do we allow drug dealers to benefit from their crimes?

Again, this is not saying you don’t think that too but I’m saying in general. I have seen such down right hatred for illegals that THAT is what has changed my view. Hatred is not from God.

I don't have to hate human beings, to hate what they have done.  Breaking the laws of our nation was a sin.  Causing extreme negative financial impact on U.S. Citizen's lives was a sin.  Even God loves the sinner and hates the sin.  Do you remember what the wages of evil are?  Sin is evil.  I am only demanding that they be sent back to the home of their origin.  Beyond that and the confiscation of their monetary gains, I wish them well in Mexico.  I don't gain happiness from seeing the negative plight of others, but by the same token, I don't gain happiness at being an unwilling door-mat for other humans.

Anyway, off to Thanksgiving duties so I’m not sure when I’ll be back. Happy Thanksgiving to you!

Same to you.

[Rational Thought]

Sorry for the delayed response....a work thing.....

I actually agree with most of your reply, especially regarding Gingrich's actions versus dumb things he says. In thinking about it, your point does have validity.

I'm particularly sensitive when it comes to the illegal immigration issue, as I honestly believe many of our economic troubles can be tied to that growing population. Yet, many politicians seem to be oblivious to the problem, instead (as I posted earlier) more concerned with a voting block. I suspect that a majority of our fellow citizens feel similarly.

If my feelings make me a perfectionist, then so be it. It's an issue I feel quite passionately about.

Gingrich might be as good as we're going to get this time. But, the way our political system works, what people say is held against them (exception Obama to most Democrats). If Gingrich were to be the nominee, he's going to have to be more careful with what he says.

I've been thinking for the past couple of months that Gingrich controls his own destiny. He's polished enough to respond to attacks. The question is can he himself avoid attacking the beliefs (and mine) of a Conservative base he would need? I just don't know.

[Valin]

How soon people forget.