FairTax Scores Big on POPVOX

POPVOX ^ | April 8, 2011 | Phil_will1 (Vanity)

[phil_will1]

One of the more intriguing new websites on the political blogoshere is POPVOX. POPVOX is an interactive site that enables individual citizens to weigh in on bills introduced into congress. You can vote for/against bills in the house or senate and you can also make a comment that will be displayed on the respective Bill Report page and forwarded to your respective representative/senator.

POPVOX also has a mapping facility which shows where support\opposition to a bill is coming from geographically. You can drill down to CD level all the way up to state and national.

HR 25 (The FairTax) made last week's POPVOX list of trending bills. As of the time of this writing, just under 1,500 votes had been cast for the bill on POPVOX, with 86% in support. Other FairTax related bills (S 13 and HJ Res 16) show even higher support percentages, albeit with much lower vote totals. HR 1040, by contrast, showed 74 votes being cast, 94% of which were in opposition. HR 1040 is the only flat tax bill in the house, where tax reform legislation is supposed to originate under our system of government.

[phil_will1]

POPVOX is still relatively new. It will be interesting to see if it takes off and the number of votes being cast grows rapidly.

[econjack]

I've read both (popular) Fair Tax books and I still favor the flat tax a little. The reason is because of the “Prebate”. That little nick in the plan gives the politicians a way to buy votes from the poor since they appear to have the right to adjust it, which could mean no change from the current tax system, which sucks.

[screaminsunshine]

If I know Rats Crats and RINOS we will end up with all of them in time.

[UCFRoadWarrior]

Good to see the FairTax back on the minds of people

I think that Huckster’s liberalism and Criminal Rights activism nearly killed the FairTax idea....which is a good idea even though pushed by Huck

Most people oppose the FairTax out of ignorance....some because they know it kills government control of revenue collection and Globalist control of economy. The people that push Free Trade and Globalism hate a FairTax because it goes against their Income Tax agenda (The Income Tax came about by being pushed by the Internationists and Free Traders)

The income tax is just a way to control people. Look at all the loopholes and mechanisms people go thru to pay less taxes

[JaneNC]

NOOOOOO to Fair Tax.

Yes, to Flat Tax.

[taildragger]

Not to mention if the tax is levied at the Retail/Wholesale level, IMHO that will make the good subject to pre-tax thievery i.e. Truck Jacking and the return of the “Mob” a-la the Soprano's, Big time. Just think goods less the 23% tax and more.... Many here would not buy the good hot because it is wrong, but how many others we know would not be that centered to resist this temptation.

I get nothing but crap from the fair-taxers when I bring this up, but it is the real world, they need to deal with it and they still don't have an answer.

[Mygirlsmom]

Online voting/polling is flawed IMHO unless there is a way to ensure one person/one vote. It's also very hard to know if a person truly understands what they are voting for/against unless a series of questions is asked about the subject and replies are consistent

It's also getting a little crazy - asking for "opinions" on things where opinion isn't relevant.

Do you agree that the sky should be blue or should it be some other color?

Yes, blue is a perfect color for the sky: 47%
No, I think it's time for the sky to practice some diversity: 43%
Not sure: 10%

[Hostage]

How reflective is POPVOX?

POPVOX appears to rely on people volunteering to voice their concerns. So I don’t know about the general applicability.

People who are politically active or opinionated, especially conservatives will always weigh in on such issues as FairTax.

The bottomline is that a large swath of the public still needs to hear about the FairTax and what it is exactly and they must also be coached against the specious arguments of its detractors.

A good indicator of FairTax progress is the average number of daily signups to memberships in the AFFT, the grassroots org for the FairTax. Last I heard it was about 800 people per day, every day. But that’s only about 300,000 people per year which is inadequate.

The good news is that new registrants to AFFT stick with it, once a FairTax supporter, always such; once one gets it, never can seriously consider any other alternative.

Another useful statistic for activists is that it takes about 3000 activists in a US Congressional District to turn the Rep to the FairTax.

Where POPVOX stands in all this I don’t know

[PubliusMM]

Econjack, I agree. I’ve tried to read as much as I can find on the Fair Tax. I am in support of the concept, but that ‘prebate’ silliness just smells like something that future congress critters will be likely to ‘tweak’ for their own aggrandizement.
I would much rather see a smaller applied rate, and dispense with this element of the plan.
Only other big concern is the protection needed for those of us approaching our sunset years and finding ourselves likely to be more dependent on SS than we otherwise have been planning. Not really sure what needs to be done, but we need some sort of protection, I think.

[maine-iac7]

bump

[radpolis]

Thanks for introducing me to this.

This is more effective poll freeping than those liberal media polls.

Plus, these polls have a direct line to Congress.

[phil_will1]

“Yes, to Flat Tax.”

Which flat tax proposal do you support?

You can vote for HR 1040, which is the only flat tax bill in the house, here:

https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/112/hr1040/report#nation

It isn’t doing too well, as you can see.

BTW, the Republican establishment LOVES the flat tax because it doesn’t really reform the corrupt system of trading earmarks and tax preferences for campaign cash, aided and abetted by an army of lavishly paid lobbyists.

[Cracker Jack]

I agree that the “prebate”, on first impression, sounds bad. That was my first impression. I changed my mind after thinking it through.

The first criticism about a sales tax is that it is “regressive”—It takes a larger bite out of the “poor” than those of more means. The prebate makes the tax non-regressive. The feds use their definition of poverty income to establish who is “poor”. It is less than $29,000 for a family of four now.

Since NO ONE is required pay tax on spending below the poverty level income, everyone gets a monthly prebate for poverty level spending. I get one, you get one, Warren Buffet gets one, and Warren Buffet's secretary gets one. There is no income test to get a prebate. We do need to tell them who is getting the prebate and where to deposit the refund. Prebates, I believe, would go to only legal residents.

This makes an effective tax rate of zero percent for the “poor”, 11.5% for a $58,00 income, and so-on.

So the “prebate” is merely a refund of tax paid but not owed.

And yes, we would need to watch Congress and object if they try to mess with it. This is true for any legislation. At least an increased prebate for some people would be more visible than the buried tax loopholes in use now.

[Principled]

Flat tax keeps business taxes.
Flat tax keeps employee FICA taxes.
Flat tax keeps employer FICA “contribution”.
Flat tax keeps withholding.

NRST eliminates business taxes.
NRST eliminates employee FICA taxes.
NRST eliminates employer FICA “contribution”.
NRST eliminates withholding.

I bring up these items because they are subtle ways that are used to prevent the populace from knowing the true cost of government.

[Principled]

There is not much difference between evading paying 23% at the counter or 23% of income. They both are illegal, they both hide the taxable thing.

So what's your answer to people not paying income taxes? The answer to nrst non-compliance is the same.

See - no crap - just easy truth.

Any tax system will have non-compliance. Any. To minimize non-compliance make the system perceived as fair, easy to understand, and transparent.

[Principled]

Self-selected samples are full of those who feel strongly one way or the other. Obviously not representative samples.

[Principled]

I agree with you two that the prebate is a sticker.

My preference is by far to reduce the rate and eliminate the prebate - as I would presume the FRopulation would. IIRC it would cut about 3% off the rate.

As for those approaching retirement - I have more in tax deferred plans so I’ll do well. But those who have more in after tax savings will not. My suggestion has been to credit after tax savings in just the way they credit after tax inventory [the inventory credit was added due to public suggestion btw.]

In any case, the nrst is miles better than any income tax and I support the nrst with its warts.

I want us all to pay the exact same marginal rate. I want us all to feel the full, unhidden burden of government equally.

[taildragger]

My thought is noncompliance will go up dramatically as the nefarious types will try to increase their business by jacking the goods and selling it hot and people will be tempted to buy. It is a temptation is not their in prevalence, unless you count those buying Cig’s in North Carolina and selling them in other states and gaining the tax difference. That is a microcosm of what the Mob will take advantage of, they will not buy it, they will just steal it and then charge no tax. I really see the Fair Tax as the Mob Re-Employment act of 20xx whenever it becomes a reality.

[Principled]

ok - that’s fine. I see it just like evading taxes on income. The mob does it. Criminals do it. Try to stop it if you can of course.

[MathMatters]

A true flat tax makes sense — but the “Flat Tax” nonsense by Newt and CATO and others, is not flat at all. It’s the opposite of flat. They call it flat, but it’s not flat whatsoever.

Get a real flat tax, and that would be good.

As to the Fairtax, it sounds great but is goofy. They have a massive “second tier” of taxation that they don’t mention in their books, videos, or speeches. And this second tier of taxation is silly, it’s a charade, a farce.

One thing about taxes — whatever name they give it, it’s usually exactly the opposite of the name.