You can have my CS Battle flag when you pry it from my cold dead fingers. Molon Labe.
Posted on 09/30/2010 3:55:02 AM PDT by golux
The University of Mississippi has terminated its mascot, "Colonel Reb." The mascot, an archetypal Southern gentleman with a hat, cane, and a little bow-tie, is of course racist.
Affable, bearded and jaunty, with a bright costume that cleverly foiled his dark history on the plantation, Col. Reb, when he was alive, looked rather like that other infamous slave-driver, Col. Sanders, whose inscrutable and permanent smile these days (in markets where he still shows his face) offers only a faint clue as to the fortunes he's made in his long, post-war masquerade as a peddler of fried chicken.
"We just want it to be over," said one Mississippi student on the subject of Col. Reb's execution.
Watch your back, Sanders.
There is of course nothing sacred about a football mascot or a corporate brand, and nothing particularly sad about the disappearance of either one, except for the fact that now there is nothing left of Southern symbolism to erase.
(SNIP)
And now we learn that what legions of Americans consider to be a transcendent symbol of extraordinary military leadership and valor, states' rights, indefatigable heroism, enduring pride and strength in the face of terrible odds and calamitous defeat – the Confederate battle flag – is now officially deemed a symbol of hate by the U.S. armed forces. Prospective members of all branches of the armed forces who happen to have a "Confederate flag" tattoo are automatically rejected.
(SNIP)
When they once again encounter their ancestors, which I believe they will, how will so many Americans account for their feeble treachery?
Maybe, like the Mississippi student, they will say: "We just wanted it to be over."
I wonder what some of those old heroes might say in reply....
(SNIP)
(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...
Thanks wardaddy. The old “allegory of Plato’s Cave” can help us understand the minds of those who scream and shout “ATTACK!” by way of refusing to consider certain facts of history.
Standing in opposition to those who would run our ever-changing Democracy (for that is what we have become) are those that would conserve the ideals of a truly unique way of life, a Republic, a Representative Republic, such as the one envisioned by the founders of these United States.
Many aspects of our social, and religious-based beliefs and established mores, our basic economic freedoms may possibly induce so much passion on both sides we might end up fighting each other over which path is the one to take...and we will both claim an absolute moral imperative that we will each consider unimpeachable and without doubt the most fundamental cause...the struggle, of course, will be between those that would impose enslavement to a Marxist collective, that see it as an urgent mission that cannot be put off any longer. We have seen the growing cry for socialism in the country brings us to the point where it simply cannot be ignored.
Slave or free?
Socialists will never forgo their dream of the REAL, complete and total solution in which they so fervently believe because some of us believe that the REAL path to freedom is to pursue our destiny as a republic.
I hope this will not amount to anything but a clash between opposing forces of voters, but it seems like so much more and it seems explosive. It is too deep a disagreement, too fundamentally rooted in our belief in a way of life that we each so totally commit to.
I wonder how third Manassas will turn out?
“I thought you said Africa was unihabitable. Now you’re saying it was a good choice for Lee’s former chattel. Make up your mind.”
At no point did I say it “was a good choice” I said it was “their choice” as opposed to the Segregationists of Lincoln.
You are not considering the timeline and the arc of the relocation efforts by Lincoln and his ilk. You also ignored the massive deaths and the civil wars and usurpation, oppression of the natives by the Amero-Liberians and the rest.
Anyone can pull out a single sentence and ignore the entire sweep of history and make any argument they want. Like you do.
Once they were freed they had to go somewhere. Virginia law in place at the time, and which was incorporated in the 1850 constitution, mandated that any slave freed in Virginia had 12 months in which to leave the commonwealth or else be sold back into slavery.”
Hahahahaha...and you think that was less humane than sweeping down on their homes, burning them out, “foraging” the countryside till there was no food and letting them fend for themselves, even in the winter, like the North did when they “liberated them?”
Ah yes, liberation. When the north did so much to help them out.
Hahahahaha.
At least try to make your case coherent. You really are looking foolish now. Or are you trying to make a case for the stupidity and carelessness of the North in their what shall we call it ... land snatch? See snatch.
We were talking about Lee's former chattel and their emigration to Liberia. Try to stay on track.
Ah yes, liberation. When the north did so much to help them out.
I understand. Much better that they remain in slavery, right?
My point was: if you wear symbols like that you can't accuse other people of not getting over the past.
Wearing a contemporary German or Japanese flag might just be a symbol of ethnic pride. Wearing something with a Nazi or Soviet or Viet Cong flag, or the Imperial Japanese battle flag would indicate that you have some problem with how things turned out or what America did or is.
And the Confederate battle flag? Is it just some kind of neutral symbol from American history?
Well, first of all, not so long as there are people who loudly claim that the war turned out the wrong way. At least some of the rest of us are bound to take such a shirt as symbolic of sedition or subversion.
Secondly, for a long time we did take the CBF as a benign symbol of regional pride. That was back in the days when it was also a symbol of segregation, and that association has also stuck for a lot of people, to the point where the CBF doesn't look so innocent.
Third, when you consider that Confederate symbols are associated with a war in which more Americans lost their lives than in our other wars with Mexico or Germany or Japan, you can understand why some people may still be sensitive about it.
And the US flag? Is that also a symbol of the carnage of the Civil War? Well if you want the 35-star version emblazoned with "Death to Traitors" or "Union or Death" it is. But the national banner has had 150 years to develop other associations. It's as much a symbol of all of us now as the French tricolor -- once the hated symbol of the Jacobins and Napoleon -- has become the symbol of the entire French nation.
Some countries can kind of chuckle about past civil wars. Britain's like that. Nobody today is wholly a cavalier or wholly a roundhead. Everybody recognizes a little bit of both in who they are and how things turned out (Ireland's a whole lot different on that score).
But some countries have wounds that are too recent and too deep. I think we're somewhere in between. Closer to the British than to the Spanish, but still somewhere in the middle. That probably has more to do with how things were 50 years ago than 150, but there's still some sensitivity there.
And who exactly is “the rest of us?” The enlightened ones like you?
Normal people who aren't carrying around a 150 year grudge.
I'm not saying most people are going to be horrified or shocked or angered by the Confederate flag on clothing, but they may think you're a little bit off. Like if you were wearing a shirt with a pop culture slogan on it. A little more than that. But less than if you were wearing Nazi or Soviet emblems.
You speak of “Confederate mythology and symbols.”
Do you also speak of “American mythology and symbols?”
They are one and the same.
From the article:
And here you are, my spiritually impoverished progeny, 300 years after the first war in which we fought and died that you might be free from a tyrannical central government, and almost 200 years after another great and terrible war, the worst imaginable, in which we fought our brothers and died for the very same cause. You have now willingly disgraced not just this cause – which might have been understandable given the terrible complexity of the time – but you have also disgraced almost every vestige of our memory, corrupting even the flags on our graves.
The degree to which you are now indebted to, and dependent on, your federal government is a most bitter reminder of our failure. But you have failed in a deeper sense. You, like many Americans, have in your ignorance abetted in the practical destruction our founders’ Constitution. Having surrendered liberty, you are no longer entitled to its blessings. So please do not speak of slavery. You have stripped yourself of your knowledge, pride and heritage. You have shamed and prostrated yourself, and, to no small degree, it is you who are now enslaved.
Did I call anybody a bigot or a racist?
No. I said some people might have some sensitivity about confederate symbols. Maybe they would think of you that way.
A lot of other people just wouldn't take you seriously or would think you were "funny" somehow. I pretty much fall in that group.
Under all of Lincoln's proposals, it was 'their choice'.
You are not considering the timeline and the arc of the relocation efforts by Lincoln and his ilk.
The timelines aren't that different. But Burke's went to Liberia in 1853. Lincoln was advocating voluntary emigration during the 50's and 60's.
You also ignored the massive deaths and the civil wars and usurpation, oppression of the natives by the Amero-Liberians and the rest.
Don't tell me you're going to blame all the ills of Africa on Lincoln, too?
Anyone can pull out a single sentence and ignore the entire sweep of history and make any argument they want. Like you do.
Based on your posts I'd say that's your failing and not mine.
We were talking about Lee’s former chattel and their emigration to Liberia. Try to stay on track.
Yes, you idiot, we were talking about the difference between Lee’s treatment of his people and the bastards in the Segregationist movement that wanted to send them there hell or high water. People like Lincoln’s political mentor, Henry Clay, who led the movement.
Thought you might like this, a scene from Deadwood in a scene from the late 1870s. Even the Hollywood liberal writers knew what a shithole Liberia was:
“Make me know you sweet, God-fearing and truthful like I wanted my boy to be,” Lou demands, but Odell won’t play along. “Back from where you send him,” he says, full of sarcasm, “raising up to a man, safe amongst his own.”
Lou says right, in Liberia, where he would be free.
“Free?” Odell laughs. “Sheeeit.” His mama gets pissed, but Odell goes right on dishing it out. He says, fine, there was no field work there, since they had actual Africans to do that, but it was “hot till you can’t breathe. Nothing ever be dry. Hate the air. Hate the breathing in and out.”
You think it was a land of milk and Honey, because your boy Abe wanted to stick em ALL in there?
man if folks ever throw off the yoke of racial redress in our culture than "we will indeed be free at last...good God almighty free at last"
till then it's no better than a poll tax and nightriders with lawyers
The country usually gets things right in time. At least I hope so. But I can't see jumping from one extreme back to the other.
ME: You also ignored the massive deaths and the civil wars and usurpation, oppression of the natives by the Amero-Liberians and the rest.
YOU: Don’t tell me you’re going to blame all the ills of Africa on Lincoln, too?
ME: Anyone can pull out a single sentence and ignore the entire sweep of history and make any argument they want. Like you do.
YOU: Based on your posts I’d say that’s your failing and not mine.
ME: Hahahaha ... you will do anything to change a subject. Trying to defend the indefensible makes you look like a bigger ass as each post gets deflected, ignored and unanswered in you ignorant and pathetic style of ducking, shucking and jiving.
Yeah, “I was blaming all the ills of Africa on Lincoln, too” except ... no, I wasn’t. Thanks for proving my point, dimwit. See you around the campus.
Copy one of those lines out of context, blame all of the world’s ills on the South and declare yourself superior. Small reward for appearing so stupid, but have at it.
And apparently during a brief period when Lee shipped his former chattel off to Liberia it was all pie and ice cream for them. When Lincoln suggested aiding those who wanted to emigrate then he was sending them to certain death in an uni habitable land. Were there two different Africa's or something?.
Thought you might like this, a scene from Deadwood in a scene from the late 1870s.
Can historical quotes from "Gods and Generals" or "Outlaw Josey Wales" be far behind? </sarcasm>
You think it was a land of milk and Honey, because your boy Abe wanted to stick em ALL in there?
Just those who wanted to go. But I keep forgetting, in your mind it was much better they remain as slaves.
There ARE people - proud, patriotic, sensible, compassionate, freedom-loving Americans who believe that the war turned out the wrong way. Call ‘em ‘old grudge-bearers’ if you like. Some call ‘em constitutional scholars.
You are obviously very intelligent, but it is just plain wrong - and un-American, to boot - to argue that their cultural symbols should be erased, or freedom of expression be limited for Americans, in any sense. The NAZI parallels are silly: these are American symbols. Should we strike Old Glory in deference to our victims? Should we allow PETA raze all of Nantucket? And once these problems are solved, shall we call ourselves Oceania, or Eurasia?
But again, the article (I think) is addressed to Southerners, not to the nation as a whole.
“And the Confederate battle flag? Is it just some kind of neutral symbol from American history?”
No. It’s a symbol from a war that was never declared, never declared over (no constitutional grounds for cessation) and was fought by Americans on both sides. Granted there are some dimwits out there who are “angered” by an American uniform ... hell, they are probably the same good americans who sympathized with those who spit on guys coming back from overseas in the ‘60’s ... we had a little dustup there that a lot of Americans didn’t like, too ... those were American uniforms. Who gives a shit what angers these slobs?
And if you are one of them, or one who sympathizes with them and sees Americans with families that were wiped out that are proud of their bravery, who gives a shit about you?
This from the man who has been posting quotes out of context, blaming everything on Lincoln, and then calling other people stupid. A true pot-meet-kettle moment from yet another Lost Causer.
When they once again encounter their ancestors, which I believe they will, how will so many Americans account for their feeble treachery?
Maybe, like the Mississippi student, they will say: "We just wanted it to be over."
I wonder what some of those old heroes might say in reply.
What about:
And here you are, my spiritually impoverished progeny, 300 years after the first war in which we fought and died that you might be free from a tyrannical central government, and almost 200 years after another great and terrible war, the worst imaginable, in which we fought our brothers and died for the very same cause. You have now willingly disgraced not just this cause – which might have been understandable given the terrible complexity of the time – but you have also disgraced almost every vestige of our memory, corrupting even the flags on our graves.
The degree to which you are now indebted to, and dependent on, your federal government is a most bitter reminder of our failure. But you have failed in a deeper sense. You, like many Americans, have in your ignorance abetted in the practical destruction our founders' Constitution. Having surrendered liberty, you are no longer entitled to its blessings. So please do not speak of slavery. You have stripped yourself of your knowledge, pride and heritage. You have shamed and prostrated yourself, and, to no small degree, it is you who are now enslaved.
Pretty emotional stuff. A lot of people in the Civil War era probably would have sympathized with that Mississippi student who just wanted it to be over.
But is it really the case that we are all slaves now and the Confederacy was somehow better and freer than we are today? I doubt it. Most people now (and most people back then as well) would disagree.
Is it really the case that they had and fought for the Founders' values and we betrayed them? Isn't it more likely that every generation has had and betrayed those values to some degree?
I can't say that most of us (myself very much included) possess the martial virtues, the courage and endurance and dedication, of the Civil War generation (or the WWII generation for that matter), but politically I don't think we have anything to be ashamed of in comparison with Jefferson Davis or the secessionist fire-eaters and firebrands.
Franklin Raff is a Virginian. He lives in Mount Vernon, Va., and Jerusalem, Israel.
I don't know about the last part, but he was born in Quebec.
One way or the other, maybe he's not really writing about the American Civil War, guys.
By the way fellas, there have been some complaints on both sides of this thread about FR not being “what it used to be.”
I know that my ‘nic is recent, but I think we can all agree that among the things that were admirable about the FR of ‘yore’ (I know it) was that, as Jim demanded, we all worked to LIMIT personal attacks and REFRAIN from using “bad language.”
If you care about Free Republic please help set an example... Only a jerk has so little self-control as to get a Mod involved.
You can have my CS Battle flag when you pry it from my cold dead fingers. Molon Labe.
"If all earthly power were given me," said Lincoln in a speech delivered in Peoria, Illinois, on October 16, 1854, "I should not know what to do, as to the existing institution [of slavery]. My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia, to their own native land." After acknowledging that this plan's "sudden execution is impossible," he asked whether freed blacks should be made "politically and socially our equals?" "My own feelings will not admit of this," he said, "and [even] if mine would, we well know that those of the great mass of white people will not ... We can not, then, make them equals."
Ahhhhhhh...if wishes were horses, the slaves would have all been gone whether they liked it or not. But since "sudden execution is impossible," he would have made it happen sooner or later, I have no doubt. Remember; he made Liberia a recognized entity in 1862.
Now, how do you re-interpret these remarks to insist that Lincoln did NOT want to send them all? I just can't wait to hear THIS one.
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