Posted on 07/05/2010 8:38:13 AM PDT by ventanax5
Both Greece and Rome made significant contributions to Western Civilization. Greek knowledge was ascendant in philosophy, physics, chemistry, medicine, and mathematics for nearly two thousand years. The Romans did not have the Greek temperament for philosophy and science, but they had a genius for law and civil administration. The Romans were also great engineers and builders. They invented concrete, perfected the arch, and constructed roads and bridges that remain in use today. But neither the Greeks nor the Romans had much appreciation for technology. As documented in my book, Science and Technology in World History, Vol. 2, the technological society that transformed the world was conceived by Europeans during the Middle Ages.
Greeks and Romans were notorious in their disdain for technology. Aristotle noted that to be engaged in the mechanical arts was "illiberal and irksome." Seneca infamously characterized invention as something fit only for "the meanest slaves." The Roman Emperor Vespasian rejected technological innovation for fear it would lead to unemployment.
Greek and Roman economies were built on slavery. Strabo described the slave market at Delos as capable of handling the sale of 10,000 slaves a day. With an abundant supply of manual labor, the Romans had little incentive to develop artificial or mechanical power sources. Technical occupations such as blacksmithing came to be associated with the lower classes.
(Excerpt) Read more at americanthinker.com ...
It could be said that northern populations were eventually more technology oriented in an effort to survive the colder more austere climate. After all with a shorter growing season (especially during the little ice age) one's interest in bettering crop yields and fattening cattle not to mention inventing things like chimneys would be pretty keen.
Thanks for the reference; I should read the book.
But the argument appears to be strained. The Rus have never even bordered the Empire, and did not even exist as such at the time of the "loss of grip." The Hun invasion that displaced the Visigoths was probably no less of a force than the plague. To attribute the loss of power to a single factor is probably erroneous.
P.S. Is there a single factor for the loss of Constantinople? Probably not. The Christendom, much like in our own time, simply lost its common identity that allowed the vacuum to be filled by the outside force.
You were the one who said “No sale on that one.”, implying that your Parthenon example was somehow not only comparable to the Europeans’ technological advancements, but predated them as well. While the Parthenon certainly did predate them, the two aren’t remotely comparable in terms on their impacts on people’s lives.
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Thanks ventanax5. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. |
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“killed over 25 million people in Byzantium alone”
If by Byzantium you mean the entire empire, then I very much doubt this figure, it would mean literally everyone living under Byzantine rule died. The Bubonic Plague had an unusually high mortality rate in some spots (in the Middle Ages it killed off more than half of the population of Tuscany in Italy), but that number looks far too high.
Looks like an interesting book, nonetheless. I’ve got “Lost To The West” on my any minute now pile of stuff to read. :’)
http://www.justiniansflea.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelian#Felicissimus.27_rebellion_and_coinage_reform
[snip] Aurelian’s reign records the only uprising of mint workers. The rationalis Felicissimus, mintmaster at Rome, revolted against Aurelian. The revolt seems to have been caused by the fact that the mint workers, and Felicissimus first, were accustomed to stealing the silver used for the coins and producing coins of inferior quality. Aurelian wanted to erase this practice, and put Felicissimus under trial. The rationalis incited the mintworkers to revolt: the rebellion spread in the streets, even if it seems that Felicissimus was killed immediately, possibly executed. The Palmyrene rebellion in Egypt had probably reduced the grain supply to Rome, thus disaffecting the population with respect to the emperor. This rebellion also had the support of some senators, probably those who had supported the election of Quintillus, and thus had something to fear from Aurelian. Aurelian ordered the urban cohorts, reinforced by some regular troops of the imperial army, to attack the rebelling mob: the resulting battle, fought on the Caelian hill, marked the end of the revolt, even if at a high price (some sources give the figure, probably exaggerated, of 7,000 casualties). Many of the rebels were executed; also some of the rebelling senators were put to death. The mint of Rome was closed temporarily, and the institution of several other mints caused the main mint of the empire to lose its hegemony.[12]
His monetary reformation included in the introduction of antoninianii containing 5% silver. They bore the mark XXI (or its Greek numerals form KA), which meant that twenty of such coins would contain the same silver quantity of an old silver denarius.[13] Considering that this was an improvement over the previous situation gives an idea of the severity of the economic situation Aurelian faced. The emperor struggled to introduce the new “good” coin by recalling all the old “bad” coins prior to their introduction.
You are replying to a different question. The issue was not why Constantinople could not defend itself but rather why Christiandom as a whole failed to do so.
"With the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the fifth century AD, a Dark Age in philosophy and science descended upon the Mediterranean region. But the unwritten history of technological progress continued. In northern and western Europe, there was never a period of regression. As early as 370 AD, an unknown author noted the "mechanical inventiveness" of the "barbarian peoples" of northern Europe. The Christian ethic of universal brotherhood slowly spread through Europe, and slavery began to disappear. Tribes and peoples became united under a common creed. Europeans not only embraced technology, but they also developed the idea of a universal society based upon respect for the dignity and worth of the individual human being."
"The prosperity created by the new agricultural technologies subsidized education and the growth of knowledge. In the late eighth century, Charlemagne had revived education in Europe by setting up a general system of schools. For the first time, not just monks, but also the general public were educated. As the European economy prospered, students multiplied and traveled, seeking the best education they could find. Christian Cathedral Schools evolved into the first universities. The Universities of Paris and Oxford were founded c. 1170, Cambridge in 1209 AD."
Didn't read it very well did you?
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
I think that one would have to extrapolate what I wrote from what he wrote.
I think I was much more specific, whereas he was quite general.
Thank you for your thoughts though.
The book postulates that due to the plague(s) all of the area reconquered by Justinian was only held tenuously and individual tribes on the edge or under imperial sway began to develop into nation states.
To my mind the two greatest events that eventually caused the loss of Constantinople were the plagues, and the sack of the city bythe Crusaders lead by the Venetians.
After thatitwas only a matter of time.
That is only one example.All manner of engineeringincluding road building (some still in use today), the draining of the Pontine marshes, the central administration of government, even the make up of armies is still to some extent used today. Euyrope did not develop in a vacuum it stood on the shoulders of the older cultures.
There is another excellent book to read called “The Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire”. It is a bitheavybut very absorbing.It also goes into some description of the plague too. And yes by Byzantium I mean the empire which included parts of Africa, Egypt, Italy, Anatolia, etc.
I had in mind that salient example, too. Christians --- on a Crusade, no less --- sacking the seat of the Christian Empire. What better example of a Christendom's loss of common vision do we need?
“We need to re-learn our history and pass it on.”Well said.
What about Heron’s (Hero) inventions? http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm
Does anyone remember the series “Connections”? It would follow the roots and development of invention and technology. It didn’t just burst from Zeus’ brow in the Victorian era.
Thanks JV!
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