I would truly like to think we are not “really all that far apart on our thinking about immigration. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to take this discussion further.
Let’s examine your assertion that “[the] mechanism for controlling the flow into the country long ago failed to keep up with US demands for seasonal workers and laborers.” You’re saying that we need to take in a lot more legal immigrants, because America does not have enough unemployable people to take seasonal agricultural jobs.
On the contrary, this year Stanislaus County, CA, in the middle of California’s agricultural heartland, saw its unemployment rate hit a record 18.9%
http://www.modbee.com/2010/03/10/1083029/stanislaus-unemployment-at-189.html
Same thing in Kern Co, over 18%
http://www.turnto23.com/news/23178035/detail.html
Over 20% in five other California counties
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/mar/11/business/la-fi-cal-jobs11-2010mar11
I realize this is just a California snapshot, Spring 2010, not harvest time, but I can easily get you figures from all over the USA, seasonally adjusted. California was one of five, along with Florida, Georgia, North Carolina and South Carolina, that recently reached their highest unemployment rates since the government began keeping track in 1976, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
In all of these places, the unemployment rate for the young white, black and Latino male subset is MUCH HIGHER. Just take 30 seconds to run your eyes over these figures nationwide: among young males, over 50% unemployment.
http://tinyurl.com/youth-unemployment-us
Surely you see that the very sector who have the bodily capacity to do physical labor, are the ones who are suffering the most disastrous unemployment--- even as farm employers, landscapers, and construction contractors say they can’t operate without Mexicans?
That 50% figure for youth unemployment represents not just an economic need, but a terrible psychological --- call it a wasting disease. Young Americans, black, white, and Latino (native-born and legitimate legal immigrants) become demoralized, are reduced to a state of degrading dependency, lose a big chunk of their human dignity when they, first, cannot find entry-level jobs; second, cannot get apprenticeships; third, are not even expected to work, i.e. to aspire to the status and dignity of full adults.
At present there are 16 million unemployed --- and that’s understated, since it does NOT include those who are not seeking unemployment benefits: the young who have never had a job, laid-off workers who have given up looking for a job, and those who are employed part-time when they want and need full-time.
Forty percent have been out of work for more than 6 months. http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0108/Number-of-long-term-unemployed-hits-highest-rate-since-1948
To paraphrase and rework what you said. “The call to oppose the flood of low-wage immigration is above all a dignity issue.”
Mexico does not have to be, and in important ways, IS NOT, a poor country. Mexico has the 12th highest GDP in the world, outranking Spain and Canada, and FAR outranking any other country in Central America or the Caribbean coast. Three times higher than Colombia. Five times higher than Venezuela. Almost 15 times higher than Ecuador.
http://tinyurl.com/world-purchasing-power-parity
By the way, a lot of Central American people would love to work in rich Mexico. But under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,
* “A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally.” (Article 123)
* Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from Mexico instead of being imprisoned. (Article 125)
Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:
* A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)
* Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)
All that is backed up by Mexican law enforcement officers at every level: every city cop, every policeman in all 31 states, is empowered to enforce this law, and by God they do.
At the same time, Mexico openly colludes in shipping people into the USA illegally, and furiously protests our attempts to enforce our own legitimate laws.
I honestly think we should call Mexico’s bluff on its unwarranted interference in U.S. immigration policy. Let’s propose, just to make a point, that the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) member nations standardize their immigration laws by using Mexico’s own law as a model.
Perhaps a case can be made for increasing the number of legal worker visas in certain skilled areas. But I would want to make it subject to some sort of trigger mechanism.
Just off the top of my head, say that when young US male unemployment is at 50%, the number of temporary work visas for the agricultural, landscaping, food processing, meat packing and related sectors will be zero. At 25% young US male unemployment, the corresponding work visas will be 5,000. At 10% young US male unemployment, 10,000 visas. At 5%, 20,000 visas.
You understand these are just top-of-my-head figures. But I’m getting the concept across.
I believe, and would argue strongly, that it is immoral to allow immigration to take entry-level, seasonal, low-wage, unskilled or semi-skilled jobs when white, black, and Latino men already legally in the US are rotting away for lack of employment.
There is not one job in the USA that will lack US workers, if the wages are decent.
Paul, did you know I worked for the United Farm Workers 40 years ago? Worked my tail off for them, for social justice, for the poor, for those looking for a better future.
The Union failed. There were more farmworkers under a Union contract in 1970 than there are today. Do you know why it failed? There are about 3 or 4 reasons I could cite, but the absolute biggie was: wave after wave of foreign laborers who destroyed wages, destroyed working conditions, destroyed any possibility of dignified successful Union farm labor in California or anywhere else in the USA.
Another paraphrase, reworking what you said in a different way: God bless the Mexicans: make them a part of building up the kingdom of God in their country: in Mexico.
Good to talk with you, Paul. I’m glad we respect each other enough to argue hard.
Faithfully,
[Mrs. Don-o]
I will follow this with interest.
Thanks for directing me here...
You make excellent points. Our border is so open, our social welfare programs so generous, that we often cannot imagine what might happen with a more sober system. Both the US and Mexico could develop economically.
In our area in Ohio construction companies were caught hiring and paying illegal immigrants under the the table. That was for them both a pay break and a tax break....until they got caught.
But to suggest that construction labor in this area is “unwanted” at any time is simply a lie. In this age of high unemployment it is simply not true with any job.
There is zero need in this area for immigrant labor for jobs that Americans will not take. The Americans in this area will take all the jobs they can get. In the northern Ohio area I used to pastor in, there were always working class people in the church who became the pickers for all the large berry farms in the area and in Michigan. To suggest Amerians won’t be pickers at harvest time is also untrue.
But, guess what? I get to choose who I allow to become part of my household, and any person who presumes that he can choose to sneak in is at risk of my severe displeasure (perhaps deadly displeasure).
At the heart of the arguments of the supporters of the illegal immigrants, is the idea that their "need" gives them sanction to take what is not offered.
Illegal immigrants are invaders.
Wow! Most impressive Mrs. Don-o. Please alert me when you have Paul’s response.
A most excellent letter. The term “illegal” seems to have simply been forgotten. And the idea that illegals are here only for work is a sham. They come across the border for welfare, schooling, medicaid, etc. which we seem to gladly hand out to them.
I would be willing to have any illegal who wants to stay and work in this country. The caveat is that we no longer provided them with social services. Social services should only be provided to citizens or those who are legally in this country. I wonder how many illegals would stay and how Paul would feel about those terms.
Good job.
Mrs. Don-o....I admire and respect your ability to sort the wheat from the chaff. Keep me on your list!
There are multiple angles of attack that could be pursued regarding illegal immigration on the biblical front, so I shall attempt to do so, though not as in-depth as I would perhaps like.
First, let us consider the employer’s role in things:
There is the story of Jesus and The Question of Taxes [Matthew 22:15-22 NIV]:
15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk.
16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not regard the person of men.
17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?
19 Show Me the tax money.” So they brought Him a denarius.
20 And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?”
21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
22 When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way.
Here we are clearly shown that it is right to pay taxes; however, a little context may be appropriate: in that day and age the Tax Collectors were corrupt [surprise, surprise] and would often add to the taxes you owed and pocket the difference. Note that in His response Jesus did not condone that sort of dishonest theft; in other words, He did not say: “Render unto Caesar that which you are told must be rendered.” Instead we see a clear delineation of paying a legitimate debt [to the Government] which is owed.
Also, in condemnation of the aforementioned tax collectors there are the following:
Deuteronomy 25:13-16
13 “You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a heavy and a light.
14 You shall not have in your house differing measures, a large and a small.
15 You shall have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure, that your days may be lengthened in the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
16 For all who do such things, all who behave unrighteously, are an abomination to the Lord your God.
AND
Proverbs 11:1
1 Dishonest scales are an abomination to the Lord, But a just weight is His delight.
But this does not condemn those tax collectors alone, it also condemns those who would cheat the system [by altering the amount that is being measured to calculate taxes].
Now, is it unjust to think that someone employing illegal immigrants would abuse them? It is far more likely because the illegal immigrants fear to take up their issues with the law due to their lack of legal [up]standing; this can only open the door to abuses, such as are listed here: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2510698/posts
As I gave the original poster, so I give here; James 5:1-6 says:
1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you!
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.
4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter.
6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.
As you can see, the failure to pay one’s employees their full wage is a condemnation in, and of, itself.
Now, let us consider the honest citizen and legal alien:
As was stated above, God abhors unjust measuring; how then, can it be acceptable to render unequal legal rulings between the legal residents and the illegal? In the 14TH Century, John Wycliff put it this way: “How should God approve that you rob Peter, and give this robbery to Paul in the name of Christ?” [The origin, perhaps, of the saying “Rob Peter to pay Paul.”]
To grant the same benefits and privileges of either the Citizen or Legal Alien to the illegal is to give that which is unearned to someone, to the detriment of another; it is morally the same thing as “Robbing Peter to pay Paul.”
{Now, this is not to say that I condone the Courts withholding Justice to wronged illegal immigrants; however, it should NOT be ignored that they *are* law-breakers; that crime should be punished accordingly.}
Let us conclude by considering the government’s role in this:
The United States of America is founded on an ideal; that all men are created equal and that they are endowed by that Creator with rights that are unalienable and irrevokable. This could, in itself, take up a book; but let us suffice it to show the Covenant God made with Noah; Genesis 8:20-9:17 says:
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.
22 “While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, Cold and heat, Winter and summer, And day and night Shall not cease.”
1 So God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and on all the fish of the sea. They are given into your hand.
3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.
4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.
5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.
6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood, By man his blood shall be shed; For in the image of God He made man.
7 And as for you, be fruitful and multiply; Bring forth abundantly in the earth And multiply in it.”
8 Then God spoke to Noah and to his sons with him, saying:
9 “And as for Me, behold, I establish My covenant with you and with your descendants after you,
10 and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, of all that go out of the ark, every beast of the earth.
11 Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.”
12 And God said: “This is the sign of the covenant which I make between Me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth.
14 It shall be, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the rainbow shall be seen in the cloud;
15 and I will remember My covenant which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 The rainbow shall be in the cloud, and I will look on it to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”
17 And God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant which I have established between Me and all flesh that is on the earth.”
Take particular note of 9:4-6, where God established capital punishment, not as an option but as a *requirement.* This indicates that it is society’s duty to perform this act; we do it through a judicial-system which is a part of the established government, co-equal to the Executive & Legislative branches; if this ultimate punishment is to be applied for this ultimate crime [the wanton destruction of God’s image; murder] then it stands to reason that lesser crimes should also warrant punishments. Indeed, in 1 Corinthians 6:1-3 it says:
If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
This is written to the Christians! They are to exercise Judgment among one another; furthermore, in this context, it is Paul writing to encourage the punishment of a Believer via Excommunication [for sexual immorality]. So, we see in these two passages [and MANY more, should we look] that there are to be punishments for wrongdoing.
To say that illegal immigrants should be given amnesty, out of hand, is an affront to any who hold Justice in high regard.
I could go on; but this is at 4 pages currently, and I’ve covered enough of the topic on a Christian basis to refute the stance given by the Roman Catholic church on dignity; for what dignity is there in denying Justice to those who are being oppressed?
[Mrs. Don-o, you may or may not wish to ping that big -ol’ list to this; it’s up to you.]
That was an AWESOME reply — thanks for posting!
Excellent reply - well documented.
Just a lot of random thoughts and rants on the border issue.
We are farmers, since amnesty in 1986 we have had a hard time finding laborers to pick the crop. Since we are near the Mexican border we used Mexican labor bussed in and back each day.
This year we had so many people that they often only got 1 to 2 hours of work, there were no busses bringing them up from Mexico because there were plenty of Americans and green card holders who needed jobs.
So, so many of those who received citizenship after the 1986 amnesty either went the welfare route or if they were capable went on to bigger and better jobs. From experience I know that they sure don’t stay around to pick crops.
After amnesty and until about halfway through the Clinton administration, immigration was strictly enforced along the border and most who got through went way north or east when in the past they used to stay and work along the border and eventually save enough money to go home permanently.
Clinton decimated the Border Patrol and hogtied them and they were coming faster and faster. To make matters worse, after 9/11 Bush realized that a lot of the bad guys were coming through Canada and pulled thousands of agents from the Mexican border to the Canadian border and that’s when most northerner and easterners turned around one day and noticed that we were being overrun by illegals, they blamed it on Bush but it lies at Clinton’s door and 9/11.
It took most of Bush’s time in office to put enough BP through the academy and get them going and then when they put the National Guard on the border, illegal immigration slowed to a crawl and when the economy fell to pieces many illegals went home.
Now the BP is mostly fighting a drug war rather than an illegal immigrant war, and it is dangerous and dirty. Arizona may have just passed their law but they have been deporting illegals for at least a couple of years after arrests for other illegal things. But now that it has been so widely publicized the illegal drug runners are attempting to cross in New Mexico more than ever.
Our sheriff wants us to be armed and aware and use phones to call for assistance if possible but don’t use radios because the bad guys are listening. That is okay for us but those right along the border don’t have cell phone reception.
Anytime and I mean everytime amnesty is mentioned the Mexicans get desperate to cross the border. Another amnesty would just create a larger welfare burden because that is what so many are actually after and make a laughing stock of the supposed ONE TIME amnesty of 1986.
I’m am not alone in my area in thinking that this “war” that is going on in Mexico is coming here soon. You can’t imagine how awful it is in these border towns. It is anarchy. The few good cops that haven’t been murdered are chasing the drug lords and the petty to extremely felonious criminal has no obstructions. They kill and they intimidate, they kidnap and they murder. Just this weekend there were 4 men kidnapped from a wedding in the U.S. and murdered in Mexico. You can earn $200 American dollars for each person you kill for the drug lords, $200.
In our closest border town the dentist was kidnapped, he hasn’t returned and it has been months but they haven’t found a body so they think he might still be alive. They have killed the mayor and either killed or run off all the police.
Last summer in Casas Grandes they were having a stake race and thousands of people were there to watch, bandits came and demanded all their money and valuables, a few people hesitated and they opened fire and killed 50 people, lives mean nothing to them.
This is a true story it happened to the sister of a friend. This woman was in the hair salon waiting for her turn and another woman who was waiting started talking about how awful the drug lords were and that something should be done about it. There was a man getting a haircut and when he was finished he paid and walked out. By this time the lady who had been complaining was sitting in the chair, this man walked up to the beautician and put a gun to her head and told her to shave the ladies head. She protested but he said it was either that or a bullet to the head. She shaved the woman’s head and he told the woman that she better not say anything again or he would kill her and he made a believer out of her.
These are the caliber of people who have enough money to avoid the Border Patrol. They have enough money to fly in on a Visa and stay. They have no other goal than to spread their filthy drugs and make millions off of misery. And so many of them are already here, amnesty would just make it easier for them to ply both sides of the border.
If they were truly making a moral argument they would be criticizing Mexico much more harshly than us.
They are self-righteous phonies.
Well played, my FRiend! They hate it, though, when you hit them with real figures. :)
Thanks for the FRemail.
I agree with you that the border laws should be enforced, but I do feel the need to (respectfully) challenge one point you made. You stated that “Mexico does not have to be, and in important ways, IS NOT, a poor country” and you indicated that Mexico had the 12th highest GDP in the world. For this to be truly meaningful regarding the average wealth of the individual citizens of Mexico, you need to take the population of Mexico (about 112 million) into account. Per capita, the GDP works out to about $13,232.00, which isn’t that bad, but definitely not rich. For comparison, the per capita GDP of the U.S. is about $46,806.00, and for Spain (which you implied was poorer than Mexico by considering only the overall GDP) it’s about $29,739.00, which is over twice the per capita GDP of Mexico.
Really well written and factual. Thanks for the ping.
You must look at this for what it is—a power play of the world’s tyrants—they are simply using the church to further their own evil quest for control of other peoples’ lives. The DC Empire is tearing down our borders and destroying the worth of US citizenship—the move to one-world-without-borders where every thriving sovereign nation becomes a 3rd world hole for those without political power. Those holding the reins of power will have anything they wish at the expense of the serfs. In the end, Christianity will be seen as the enemy of these same tyrants.
“Tell him that the importation of workers for the purpose of providing a cheal labor market is a “crime which cries out to the Heavens for vengence.” (Rerum Novarum)
Your response to him was excellent. I couldn’t have said it any better or even approach the logic of your arguments.
The Democrats WANT illegal aliens in here because they KNOW the longer they are here, the less likely they will be expelled and that nearly all of them will vote Democrat.
The GOP looks the other way because the “business community” (the same gang of thugs which exported American production to Red China and made us Sino-Serfs) wants cheap expoilitable labor they can use without paying those expensive benefits - people who are expendable.
Mexico - the MAIN culprit - wants illegal immigration as it is safety valve to dump the least prodcutive members of its society and at the same time, reap a reward of American dollars sent back there to their family members to boost the Mexican Economy.
I’m sick and tired of Washington, the Democrats, the GOP and their corporate buddies and Mexico, raping America. Its got to stop. And the first step is to FIRE nearly eveery Congresscritter up for election regardless of party. The SECOND step is to get rid of the Marxist Monster ensconced in the White House through election or impeachment. The THIRD step is to make sure that SERIAL POLITICAL CRIMINALS never are permitted to sit in an elected office long enough to start thinking of themselves as elitist class - like most Congressmen do today.
Americans had better stand up, and take notice very quickly and take their country back from the professional politicians - or they will soon find they have no country left to take back.
Amen sister.