Posted on 02/12/2010 4:18:46 PM PST by Colofornian
During the housing bubble, they led the nation in bankruptcies. Now that the bubble is bust, they're among the top states in foreclosures. A RealtyTrac report released Thursday showed they had the fifth-highest foreclosure rate among the states, with 1 in 231 homes receiving a foreclosure notice in January. That's nearly double the national rate and not far from No. 4 Florida's rate of 1 in 187.
The US foreclosure rate actually fell 10 percent from December's level – and Utah was down nearly 12 percent – but RealtyTrac suggested they could surge again in coming months if last year's pattern holds true.
It's relatively straightforward why the housing bubble walloped Florida and the other Big Four foreclosure states...
But Utah homes rose only half that much during the decade. What's going on in Utah?
"It's a lot of younger people who spent way, way beyond their means, absurd amounts of money trying to keep up with their folks," says one Utah resident who helps counsel financially troubled families at his church. They're "cool, nice, wonderful people, but an awful lot of them don't know how to spend money very wisely."
In mid-decade, when Utah was tops in bankruptcies, various commentators pinned the blame on Mormon religious and cultural practices, such as tithing, creating large families, buying homes at a young age, and as one critic put it: "the pressure in Mormonism to be, or at least appear, financially successful as proof the Lord is blessing them."
Indeed, Mormons in 2004 had a bankruptcy rate that was approaching twice that of the national average. But a 2007 study by two Harvard Law School graduates found that rates among non-Mormons in Utah were even higher, suggesting that religion, if anything, was restraining bankruptcies.
(Excerpt) Read more at csmonitor.com ...
What kind of business did Elizabeth Smart’s father own and run? They had a very large beautiful house and five children. Where did the money come from for that house?
I have another theory and I live a million miles away from Utah’s Mormon land. My theory is that Mormons are a positive thinking and optimistic lot wearing rose colored glasses. They feel their spirituality will help them be prosperous and triumph over business problems. This only worked great during the bubble years when the rising tide of easy money lifted all boats
What you have to do is check out is exactly what kinds of businesses are Mormons involved in, in Utah. My guess is plenty of them were service businesses and many of them were ridiculous businesses that cannot flourish without an economic bubble. Such as— You were a mortgage broker making $300,000 a year and now you have no job at all for obvious reasons
When you have GIVEN a couple of years of your life to proclaim the MESSAGE of the Church, while scrimping to stay in the mission field, you’d think these folks would have LEARNED how to avoid getting in over their heads, financally.
Your attention is supposed to be on the twitching tail the gecko lost in getting away from you.
To excuse MORMONs because there are non-MORMONs doing something is less than illogical.
I don’t know what kind of business he ran, but it’s certainly true that this seems to be a mostly service business oriented state. As well as a right to work state.
Another thing I’ve noticed is a lot of multi-level marketing things (I think that is the right terminology for them). I never got involved with those myself because, as someone new to the area, I was network-less!
As I recall it Elizabeth Smart's father was in a business related to real estate. That is gonzo these days
My contention is that all these nice little entrepreneurial service businesses end up serving each other with not much of a real net gain to the economy though this kind of activity generates GDP numbers
Entrepreneurism is great in theory but America is over saturated with small guy entrepreneurs "serving" peoples legitimate needs but many serve outsized desires.
Multi-level marketing appealed to the American spirit of working for yourself but lest get real. The best way to buy these multilevel products is direct at a retail store or direct over the internet. Multi-level means many people are getting a cut. The internet is the opposite and eliminates these layers
I didn't realize that "cool" meant people who are secretly being laughed at. I know I do.
No, they are all about every member being a missionary, a command from their Prophet David O. McKay.
That's nearly double the national rate and not far from No. 4 Florida's rate of 1 in 187. [The article]
That's because 60% of the state claim to be MORMON. Do you think the OTHER 40% are SO bad that THEY would drag the state to the #2 spot? [Elsie]
Exactly.
I was trying to think of a sports analogy last night since sports are so statistical. So I came up with with A BASKETBALL TEAM ILLUSTRATION:
It's almost like a 10-member BYU basketball team that plays all 10 equally--6 of the players of whom are Mormon & 4 who are not...
...and say if BYU was one of the top teams in the nation re: avg # of fouls-per-game...
...in fact, to the point where BYU was almost DOUBLE the foul avg vs. most other teams in nation...
...now were an article to mention this illustrative anecdote about "BYU" -- wondering aloud why conservative Mormons were heavily contributing to one of the worst foul rates -- while still rightly pointing out that the 4 non-Mormons on the team have a "slightly higher" foul avg than the 6 Mormons...
...it'd be like TMQ rushing in to blame the team's obvious spread-out foul problems on just 4 non-Mormons ("to blame Mormons for something non-Mormons are doing is non sequitur")...
...and to flesh out that analogy with #s...the statistical breakdown would look like this: Say the avg college basketball team commits 20 fouls in a game...
...and BYU 38 (almost twice the avg)...
...even if the 4 non-Mormons averaged 4 fouls-per-game to account for 16 of those 38 fouls, that's still leaves 22 fouls by the other 6 players -- a 3.7 average...
...yes, that 3.7 average is "slightly" better than the 4.0...
...but guess who's committing the bulk of the fouls?
And, in fact, if you look at that analogy closely, 22 fouls by 6 PLAYERS STILL outranks the national average of 20 by ENTIRE TEAMS!
...Yet, TMQ somehow felt the compulsion to ding the equivalency of the 4 guys with 4.0 average fouls
-- all the while defending...
...(with his statement "If the worst offenders are non-Mormon, why again is this the Mormons' fault?")...
...the guys who even if their non-Mormon teammates were suspended, they'd still muster up MORE fouls than the avg. ENTIRE TEAM among themselves!!!
(Beware of folks who rush in with fancy Latin terms claiming "Hey, it doesn't follow" when in fact the reality is "They just don't follow statistical realities.")
I'd also add a simple formula:
Housing prices just a little cheaper than California
+ Wage scales just a little higher than Arkansas
+ A nationwide housing crash
= A higher propensity for economic trouble.
Utah has a nice social environment and a fairly nice climate, two things which tend to attract retirees. Retirees are nice people, but they do tend to drive up demand for housing in any local market. When times are good, this creates a lot of local jobs in construction and elsewhere. When times are bad, it tends to magnify the problems of boom and bust.
Things?
Or schemes?
There you go again - trying to use LOGIC to explain something.
Non-Mormon Utahns have a higher foreclosure rate than Mormon.
You guys seem to want to lay the blame on Mormons, whereas I see the blame lies on Utanhs in general.
ttt
It’s the unresolvable conflict between rational learning/thought processes and an systematically inculcated belief that if you have enough faith, God will fix everything. It’s not unique to Mormons, by any means. In fact, in many ways, Mormon theology places a lot more responsibility for outcomes on individuals (compared to, for example, Calvinist theology). But in practice, many Mormons haven’t managed to apply this good theological concept to financial matters.
Unless it is used as a tax deduction it's not the business of the IRS or 'reporter'. Maybe the 'reporter' is just making up his 'facts'.
Besides, Mormons don't fill out any different tax return forms than the rest of us and I certainly don't list my religion anywhere on the form.
Just because you donate to an organization doesn’t mean you are a part of it. Like I said, the ‘reporter’ seems to be making up his ‘facts’. NO WHERE is it a fact on a tax return that you are Mormon or any other religion.
Nor, is it listed as a fact on a mortgage whether you are Mormon, etc.
So, where does this ‘reporter’ get his facts?!
(Of whom about 60% are Mormon!)
Neither of your explanations make any sense to me. Non-Mormon Utahns have a higher foreclosure rate than Mormon.
Uh, slightly higher.
So, "math class" if I tell you:
X & Y are very low #s (high foreclosure rates even in Utah are just over 4 per 1,000 -- just over .4% per year)
and: X is a "slightly higher" number than Y -- IOW, one might be .43 and the .40
and then ask you, which of the following are higher,
60 x Y...(like 60 x .40)
...or 40 x X...(like 40 x .43)
Which number will be higher???
How 'bout understanding it now?
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