Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Demise of Another Evolutionary Link: Archaeopteryx Falls From Its Perch
Evolution News & Views ^ | October 26, 2009 | Casey Luskin

Posted on 10/27/2009 8:11:33 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts

The Demise of Another Evolutionary Link: Archaeopteryx Falls From Its Perch

A few days ago we saw Ida fall from her overhyped status as an ancestor of humans. Now some scientists are claiming that Archaeopteryx should lose its status as an ancestor of modern birds. Calling Archaeopteryx an “icon of evolution,” the Wall Street Journal (WSJ) borrows a term from Jonathan Wells while reporting that “[t]he feathered creature called archaeopteryx, easily the world's most famous fossil remains, had been considered the first bird since Charles Darwin's day. When researchers put its celebrity bones under the microscope recently, though, they discovered that this icon of evolution might not have been a bird at all.”

According to the new research, inferences about growth rates made from studies of Archaeopteryx’s ancient fossilized bones show it developed much more slowly than modern birds. While the WSJ is reporting these doubts about Archaeopteryx’s ancestral status as if they were something new, those who follow the intelligent design movement know that such skepticism has been around for quite some time. In his 2000 book Icons of Evolution, Jonathan Wells discussed differences between Archaeopteryx and modern birds and the implications for Archaeopteryx's place as an alleged link between dinosaurs and birds:

But there are too many structural differences between Archaeopteryx and modern birds for the latter to be descendants of the former. In 1985, University of Kansas paleontologist Larry Martin wrote: “Archaopteryx is not ancestral of any group of modern birds.” Instead it is “the earliest known member of a totally extinct group of birds." And in 1996 paleontologist Mark Norell, of the American Museum of Natural History in New York, called Archaeopteryx “a very important fossil,” but added that most paleontologists now believe it is not a direct ancestor of modern birds.

(Jonathan Wells, Icons of Evolution, p. 116 (Regnery, 2000).)Archaeopteryx isn’t the only evolutionary icon losing its claim as the ancestor of birds. In recent months we’ve seen paleontologists increasingly arguing that the entire clade of dinosaurs should no longer be considered ancestral to birds. As the WSJ article states:

There are lingering doubts that birds today are descendants of dinosaurs. Researchers at Oregon State University recently argued that the distinctive anatomy that gives birds the lung capacity needed for flight means it is unlikely that birds descended from dinosaurs like archaeopteryx and its kin. Their findings were published in June in the Journal of Morphology.
As paleontologist John Ruben of Oregon State was quoted saying when his article was published:
But old theories die hard, Ruben said, especially when it comes to some of the most distinctive and romanticized animal species in world history.

"Frankly, there's a lot of museum politics involved in this, a lot of careers committed to a particular point of view even if new scientific evidence raises questions," Ruben said. In some museum displays, he said, the birds-descended-from-dinosaurs evolutionary theory has been portrayed as a largely accepted fact, with an asterisk pointing out in small type that "some scientists disagree."

"Our work at OSU used to be pretty much the only asterisk they were talking about," Ruben said. "But now there are more asterisks all the time. That's part of the process of science."

("Discovery Raises New Doubts About Dinosaur-bird Links," ScienceDaily, June 9, 2009.)While "museum politics" seem to dominate now more than ever when it comes to evolution, it's nice to at least see some of those asterisks getting a little attention in a major media outlet like Wall Street Journal.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: antiscienceevos; belongsinreligion; catastrophism; catholic; christian; creation; darwindrones; evangelical; evolution; evoreligionexposed; godsgravesglyphs; intelligentdesign; judaism; notasciencetopic; paleontology; propellerbeanie; protestant; science; templeofdarwin
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120 ... 221-234 next last
To: MGBGUN; allmendream
Variation within a species is not the evolution theory you subscribe to. Variation within a species is a scientific fact, unlike the theory, or I should say, the hypothesis of evolution which is not scientific fact.

Am I the only one confused by this? Are you trying to say that you accept variation within a species, but the magic as-yet-undiscovered button is at work limiting those variations to only said species?
81 posted on 10/27/2009 11:57:35 AM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]

To: whattajoke

Nor does it seem that a multiplicit mutagenics that result in non-interbreeding related intergrade species strike a logical chord...


82 posted on 10/27/2009 11:58:45 AM PDT by FormerRep
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: MGBGUN
Variation within a species is a difference in DNA, not how the DNA is expressed. A species with great variation has a great deal of variation in DNA, and a species (like our own) that has little genetic variation is very similar in DNA.

Moreover how DNA genes are expressed is a function of the DNA code itself. One doesn't get a permanent change in expression pattern without a permanent change in the underlying DNA regulatory sequences that control the expression of the genes.

Variation within a species IS a measure of the difference in DNA among members of the species. If variation happens “rapidly” then obviously you are proposing that DNA change within the species happens “rapidly”.

How do you propose that variation in genetic expression can happen such that a ‘badger’ becomes different than a ‘wolverine’ without a change in the underlying DNA? Do you propose that both came from the same primordial “kind” WITHOUT a change in DNA? Just a matter of opinion that makes a Badger different than a Wolverine?

What is the difference that would cause a change in genetic expression, and how is this accomplished “rapidly” enough that all the “kinds” that could fit on the Ark could evolve into all known species upon the Earth?

We see beneficial mutations (which is NOT synonymous with evolution) all the time in experimental populations, in nature, and in our domesticated animals. The reason a Dachshund is different than a Wolf is because of variations in the DNA, and the artificial selection of ‘beneficial’ traits for short limbs, long ears, etc, that arose or existed in the population.

83 posted on 10/27/2009 12:10:33 PM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]

To: FormerRep

Nor do they ever acknowledge allopatric speciation, even though it is one of the most easily understood - and demonstrated - speciation events. Heck, it’s how Darwin came to put all the pieces of his theory together.

Of course, “They’re still finches/birds!” they will cry. True, but when, over time, those finches no longer interbreed for a variety of reasons - BEYOND geographic barriers, they’ve become distinct species.

Within an hour or so, I would think even the most ardent creationist would accept that. That’s when we’ll hear about “kinds” and such. But it’s a step I guess.


84 posted on 10/27/2009 12:12:08 PM PDT by whattajoke (Let's keep Conservatism real.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: whattajoke
Indeed; they don't even understand the subject they are attempting to refute.

As ridiculous a spectacle as a bunch of special ed students taking the football and trying to compete against the pro’s without even an understanding of the rules by which the game is played.

To credibly refute or reject something one must first be able to understand it. But like the Red Queen in Alice in Wonderland “verdict first, trial after”.

85 posted on 10/27/2009 12:15:36 PM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: scottdeus12

The “quote” had nothing to do with your argument. Therefore, strawman.

You lose.


86 posted on 10/27/2009 12:18:26 PM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: allmendream

So many valedictorians from the Sunshine school, eh?


87 posted on 10/27/2009 12:19:12 PM PDT by xcamel (The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it. - H. L. Mencken)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: whattajoke

I’ve also noticed a great deal of mistaking genotype with phenotype... two ducks may not walk alike, look alike or sound alike yet are genotypically similar and phenotypically not and visa-versa.

Terminology is important. “Kind” is not a proper nomenclature.


88 posted on 10/27/2009 12:21:27 PM PDT by FormerRep
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

Where is my AIDS thread you promised?


89 posted on 10/27/2009 12:21:55 PM PDT by RightWingNilla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: G Larry

I thought most creationists were YECers? At least the ones ve met on FR.


90 posted on 10/27/2009 12:23:38 PM PDT by RightWingNilla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: metmom

It is totally devastating for the evo position.


91 posted on 10/27/2009 12:26:38 PM PDT by RightWingNilla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: whattajoke

No, I’m saying those variations are limited to within the species and are already predetermined by the info within the DNA.


92 posted on 10/27/2009 12:31:30 PM PDT by MGBGUN (Freedom is not free.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: allmendream

God programmed those polymorphisms into the genomes. Point mutations cannot happen naturally! The DNA “knows” if it occurred by radiation or a chemical mutagen and self destructs the whole cell. It will only accept changes by the Designer.


93 posted on 10/27/2009 12:33:42 PM PDT by RightWingNilla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: RightWingNilla

I said, you can find the already posted AIDS threads by typing in keyword “AIDS”. If you can’t even manage to figure out how to do that, how can you possibly expect to understand even the basics of the AIDS scandal?


94 posted on 10/27/2009 12:36:01 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

I dont want an already posted old AIDS thread. I thought you said you were going to dedicate a new AIDS thread especially for me.


95 posted on 10/27/2009 12:38:29 PM PDT by RightWingNilla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 94 | View Replies]

To: RightWingNilla
But how would polymorphic gene expression be continued down the lineage without a change in the underlying DNA?

How could a “kind” change “rapidly” into many different species without an underlying change in DNA that would then change the gene expression?

Where does this “variation” in either DNA or gene expression come from? And why do creationists assume it must happen thousands of times faster than any evolutionary biologist ever proposed? And how would this “rapid” change in “variation” somehow stop at the “kind” level?

96 posted on 10/27/2009 12:39:46 PM PDT by allmendream (Wealth is EARNED not distributed, so how could it be RE-distributed?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: RightWingNilla
You gotta stay on top of these things, Nilla. Where were you when I posted my other AIDS links? You snooze, you lose.
97 posted on 10/27/2009 12:41:54 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: ClearCase_guy
"How about addressing the issue that Evolution seems to have a lot of unproven assumptions and involves some very questionable science? "

How about addressing the reason it is called the Theory of Evolution instead of the Evolutionary Principle? It is a model that fits the facts and is revised, as necessary, as more data becomes available. An irony that seems to be lost on most YEC types is that theories evolve....who'd a thunk?

98 posted on 10/27/2009 12:48:21 PM PDT by Natural Law
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: GodGunsGuts

But I want my own AIDS thread! I want AIDS!


99 posted on 10/27/2009 12:48:44 PM PDT by RightWingNilla
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: xcamel
"Mostly because no one has claimed that “man descended from monkeys” in the last 150 years... however GGG is giving baboons a hell of a run for the money bad name."

There, fixed it for you.

100 posted on 10/27/2009 12:49:55 PM PDT by Natural Law
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120 ... 221-234 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson