Posted on 10/26/2009 7:51:02 AM PDT by Scythian
I'm a huge Beck fan, in fact I'm listening right now here
http://www.ksfa860.com/common/gap_streamer.php
but something really confuses me. It takes the ability to use real critical thinking to know what Beck (and most of us know about the state of the country and where we are heading). That is, we have the ability to discover the truth no matter how much the media or conventional wisdom try to hide it. Yet on Mormonism, Beck is cleary wrong. Any Christian knows that the book or momonism is severely flawed and that Joseph Smith was no prophet. How can Beck cut through all the chaff of what is going on in our world and come to the truth and yet believe the writings of Joseph Smith? It doesn't make sense? I'm not saying he's up to something secret, not by any means, it's just that he's so right about so many things and completely wrong on the most important thing. Now, he just said on the air that he believes Jesus is the Savior of the world and that he is Mormon.
I also think that because he is Mormon he is not attacked near as much if he was a Evangelical Bible only believer. Anyway, am I nutz or does Beck being a Mormon seem bizarre?
Moroni 10:4 is not so much of a promise as it is a manipulative device. It promises a particular result if certain terms are met. But the terms reflect on the seeker's integrity as regards both his sincerity and resolve, and on his faith in Christ. To be willing to rely on the promise of this verse as a test for the Book of Mormon's truthfulness one must already have concluded somehow that its instruction is valid and its promise reliable. That is, one must already believe in the "truthfulness" of this verse.
If the verse is true, then the only possible explanation for failing to obtain the result promised is a failure to meet the terms. That is, one must lack a sincere heart, and/or real intent, and/or faith in Christ. If one believes the verse is true then one must obtain the answer promised, or face an embarrassing judgement of one's sincerity, intent, or faith in Christ. The seeker is forced into convincing himself he has had some kind of manifestation from God, just to vindicate his own character. Or worse, he is moved to a frame of mind where he will gladly and indiscriminately embrace any supernatural manifestation as though it were from God.
Plain reason, not to mention all the force of Scripture's revelation of the character of God, testifies that God would not, does not, use such manipulative mind/ego games against the human family to bring them to believe the truth. God does not approve, and truth does not need, such machinations.
easy to say until you’ve TRIED IT. Try it, wuss.
I agree. It is getting harder to watch him. The crying has got to go.
BTW, I know plenty of folks who tried it and claim to have not gotten a response from God..Thats OK. It is not for me or anyone else to judge. Its between them and God. But, at least they’ve tried. and they can speak with some authority to the veracity of their own experience.
Let's start with your last comments first: Here's the KJV of Jude 4 -- which you claim Lds commentators have added to try to explain away part of Joseph Smith, History, vv. 19-20: For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
I'm sorry, but there's no reference to these "ungodly men" in Jude 4 being "prophets" -- even false ones.
You equate "professors" to all believers--mormons do not do so, which you may not have known (but will now)...As I understand it, "professors" here, as understood by mormons, refers not to believers "professing" a belief, but to learned or credentialed religious leaders claiming, without authority, to represent God.
Smith didn't write out the "official first vision" account you're citing -- the one that uses terms "professors," "corrupt," "abomination," "creeds" until 1838...around 18 years after it happened. Even the earlier handwritten diary versions don't have these words.
So, Joachim, we need to go by historical context -- not by after-thought "smoothies" by 20th century Lds commentators. So what you quoted above is the official 1838 version of Smith's "first vision." In comparison, we need to judge how Smith utilized the word "professors" in that same era -- not how contemporary Mormons "equate" (or don't equate) -- cause we all know individual Mormons may individually reject all kinds of things taught by their leaders.
Let's look at Joseph Smith, 1842, shall we? Smith was conveying a story he heard indirectly -- from a Christian, Mr. James Mullone of Springfield, via Mr. Sollars. Mr. Mullone apparently claimed that Smith told him he got a gray horse from a white cloud, and Smith then concluded: "This is a fair specimen of the ten thousand foolish lies circulated by this generation to bring the truth and its advocates into disrepute. What is it that inspires PROFESSORS OF CHRISTIANITY generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
OK, who in context is Joseph Smith talking about? False prophets? (No. NO mention of such prophets). Credentialed religious teachers? (No. Smith doesn't say, "Rev. Mullone" or "Pastor Mullone" or even identify Mullone as a Christian lay leader). Instead, what are the two clues Smith gives us in context as to who Mr. Mullone represents?
(a) "this generation"
(b) whoever "generally...[has] a hope of salvation."
Joachim:
Are you trying to make the case that only "false prophets" and "credentialed religious leaders" represent "this generation?"
Are you trying to make the case that only "false prophets" and "credentialed religious leaders" represent those who have "a hope of salvation"?
So who is contextually out of sync, you or me?
The context makes it obvious. Authorityless religious leaders aren't the only ones "hoping" for salvation, grassroots Christians are the ones doing that! So when Smith uses the word "professors," he's not only talking about some obscure pulpit preacher-professor at some backwoods Christian campus from early in the 19th century.
Again, what's Smith broader view of Christian people? When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
This goes with what Brigham Young said: "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
What did Lds apostle under Smith, Orson Pratt, have to say about Christians? "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
There ya have it! He even uses the same word as Smith ("corrupt").
What about more contemporary LDS general authorities, like LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie? "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269)
OK, who are "themselves?" That's not just "false Christian prophets" and "authorityless credentialed religious leaders." (We don't have "millions" of such people)
So, will I ever hear a Mormon concede that my historical-based interpretation is accurate? Their fearless founding leader indeed meant and taught that "those professors were ALL corrupt..."??? -- and he meant the millions of supposed "apostate" Christian believers.
In other words, even without an authorized church, even before Joseph Smith and the "mormons" came along, there were some who were "humble followers of Christ" who were not really "astray" but did "err" because of incorrect teachings. This is what mormons believe.
Jesus said the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against his church (Matt. 18:16). But what? You claim God the Father "de-authorized" the church of Jesus for 1500 to 1700 years? The apostle Paul said that God would be glorified through His church through ALL generations. (Eph. 3:21). There's that word "ALL" again -- in sharp contradiction to Smith's "ALL" words in the Pearl of Great Price.
So you're saying both Paul AND Jesus falsely prophesied in these verses? What gall.
Did you really need all three of those first three adjectives to prove how "judgmental" you are? (But, hey, we understand that some folks just don't get along with themselves)
his religion doesn’t matter...no religion has absolute proof that they are the right one...this is what saved him....how dare you even come at this angle...
freedom of religion...learn live it and appreciate it brotha
Oh, I HAVE tried it and did NOT receive the message from the Holy Ghost that Joseph Smith was a true prophet who "restored" the Gospel of Jesus Christ...and I suggest to anyone who DOES try it and does not get the approved mormon message to NOT post it on FR or you will be, as I was be called a liar by a mormon FReeper.
The usual response to those who aren't taken it by this "challenge" are told they must be "insincere" or "didn't do it correctly".
I was born mormon, lived it, temple and all, and discovered the truth about its founder and the BOM and left the mormon church many years ago and found Jesus, for which I am so grateful.
I challenge YOU to do some honest investigating, wuss.
Stop right there. You're the FReeper winner of the century! (We are going to enter you as our FREEPER rep into the broader Web-wide world competition!) You've set a new FREEPER record by conveying two 180-degree contradictory emotive expressions in ONLY four words!!! Wow!!! Impressive!!!
(And in case, you still don't understand how you "won," may I suggest you analyze that word, "detest". Perhaps you could ask 100 of your friends, "If I told you, I detested you, would you think I was negatively judging you?")
“easy to say until you’ve TRIED IT. Try it, wuss.
No Christian should try the “mormonite” test. It is
NOT from God’s Word, the Bible. It is from the cultic
writings of mormonism.
No Christian should follow cultic writings to try to
communicate with spirits.
This mormonite test is simply mormonism’s way of getting
Christians to abandon objective truth in order to accept
subjective lies.
Christians, don’t do it. Come out from among them and
be holy.
I guess some can just declare “Christian” as their denomination (which actually is fine with me). That’s convenient when others want to find wacky quotes from their leaders. That being the case, though, they ought to lay out their beliefs for our scrutiny, instead of hiding behind the faults of other religions. Fair game?
Not that high of a %. They promoted Bill Marriott to a top leader within the church even though as a CEO he's profiteered off of porn for 20+ years. Even though grassroots Lds are largely pro-life, the church has rarely taken public stances on abortion.
The Lds church has done commendable work on two CA propositions in 2000 and 2008 to protect marriage...but does that really offset what they did to try to destroy one-woman marriage for 80 years?
Politically, many of the Lds politicians are much less than conservative (Reid, Romney, etc.).
What I think is that we are going to be seeing a lot of stuff like this, where supposed conservatives sharpen their knives for Beck precisely because he’s effective.
Hey, I like a lot of what Beck says. I like his targets. He's superb at sarcasm and getting to the political point of things. But I've disagreed on FR with some of the things Hugh Hewitt has said. I don't see a Personal Fan Cult of Hewitt coming out of the wings to condemn me for critiquing Hewitt or claiming I'm an "anti-Presbyterian."
If folks would show more discernment -- praise the good components of Beck -- and critique his vulnerabilities so that they don't unwittingly steer people to follow in Beck's spiritual pathways...then perhaps some worthwhile critiques of Beck wouldn't be treated as if they should be subject to the censorship bin simply because they run afoul of the Beck Fan Cult Club. (That's hardly the Free Republic we live in)
Yes, fair game. I'm an evangelical. Jesus Christ is my leader, my head of my church, my Savior, and my "Prophet." (Please quote Him all you want).
That’s convenient when others want to find wacky quotes from their leaders.
The problem with your lack of logic here is that even if posters gave you a long list of Evangelical/Protestant/Catholic leaders within their family sphere running back several generations, you won't find ANY of these leaders writing the 2nd or 3rd books of Revelation & claiming, "God told me that Mormons are XYZ..." Even if you get "wacky" opinions of them about other sects, NONE of these leaders would ever have claimed that what they said was "Scripture."
That's not the case with Lds. In fact, a HUGE selling point their missionaries try to make door-to-door is that ONLY they have a "living prophet" and "continuing revelation." Mormons actually think that's a selling point. So when we call them on their selling points, you think we're actually only addressing some obscure quotes?
No, we're addressing their claim made to this very day that they have "living prophets" and ongoing "extended scripture factories" -- and that these quotes not only represent their leaders, but is supposedly God's "direct opinion of us." (Go ahead...look at the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, vv. 18-21...Smith even directly addresses Presbyterianism as being "wrong" and as a church unworthy of joining...tell me where you can find similar references in the Bible specifically to Mormons by name?)
So what's the bottom-line implication for contemporary church members of all this?
(1) Any Christian can in good conscience reject what some Christian leader said about the Jews, or slavery, or another sect, etc.
(2) On the other hand, can a Mormon reject the founding vision of their church? Especially since it was canonized and made into Scripture? Lds are also trained to quote Amos 3:7 all the time Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets -- as evidence of a direct living prophet-voice line to God. So how can they really reject what their living "prophet" conveys in general conferences & messages & print?
Ah, Chevydude26 chapter 3, verse 16!!! (Do you have a gold-plated version of that revelation?)
I am SO glad that SOMEone finally realizes this!!!
(How many thousands of these do you need to get the word out?)
HMMMmmm...
AUTHORITY TO TRANSLATE.
Thanks, I hadn't seen that video, sounds pretty committed.
The one I watched, he was with his wife, and of course I don't remember word for word and couldn't find it again, but it is how I got that impression, something about she wouldn't have the s word with him unless they were married although it did come out that the family was Mormon then, just thought his wife was already one.
It sounds like they are all happy as Mormons in his family.
Says WHO?
WHO made the RULES as to what SHOULD HAVE BEEN?
Aye... there's the rub!
They's be understood; but none can seem to voice them!
The answer is: the teachings of the Book of Mormon.
"And he that fighteth against Zion, shall perish, saith God; for he that raiseth up a king against me, shall perish. For I the Lord, the King of heaven, will be their king; and I will be a light upon them forever, that hear my words. Wherefore, for this cause, that my covenants may be fulfilled, which I have made unto the children of men, that I will do unto them while they are in the flesh, I must needs destroy the secret works of darkness, and of murders, and of abominations; wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish, for they are they who are the whore of all the earth" (Community of Christ Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 7:20-24).
How will God destroy the secret works of darkness in America?
There is no direct scriptural answer to this question. Only by comparing scripture with scripture does an answer began to emerge. I would suggest comparing, in the Community of Christ Book of Mormon, Alma 17:52-70 with Ether 3:69-102. I would especially draw attention to four short passages (emphasis mine):
Alma 17:60: "For behold, there is a curse upon all this land, that destruction shall come upon all those workers of darkness, according to the power of God, when they are fully ripe..."
Alma 17:64: "... cursed be the land for ever and ever unto those workers of darkness and secret combinations, even unto destruction, except they repent before they are fully ripe."
Ether 3:96: "Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shewn unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain..."
Ether 3:98: "Wherefore the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you, that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you..."
Just by comparing the passages I have quoted, it is evident that the means God will use to destroy the secret works of darkness in America involve the spiritual power of God, a final opportunity for repentance, and spiritual awakening and repentance by the nation, resulting in legal barriers to any further usurpation of power over the people. Isaiah 1:24-26 and 52:1-10 suggest to me that, after a Confrontation with Christ, America's government will be gradually reduced to its constitutional limits. I am of the opinion that such a reduction process will drive a stake through the heart of whatever remains of secret works of darkness in America.
Note: Book of Mormon chapter and verse numbers in Community of Christ printings of it do not match those in Mormon church printings of it. The Community of Christ owns the printer's manuscript of the Book of Mormon, which can be viewed, protected behind glass, in the Community of Christ Temple in Independence, Missouri, which, unlike Mormon temples, is freely open to the general public.
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