Posted on 07/30/2009 5:06:48 PM PDT by curiosity
Several readers have written over the past few days taking us to task for dismissing so-called birthers as lunatics without bothering to refute their claims. We reluctantly concede their point. The birthers have managed to sow confusion in the minds of some who are not lunatics, and for the latter group’s benefit it is worth clarifying matters.
(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...
Was Thomas Jefferson a citizen at the time of the adoption of the Constitution?
Well, I would bet that it’s that I bug you because my opinion doesn’t match with yours. And that’s what I would see it as. I would think that by now you would already know that you don’t agree with me and don’t like what I think and just go with that. I don’t see what the problem should be in discussing it, even if you don’t like the ideas I present.
Since the mods have warned about getting personal on this thread (and it would apply to any thread)... that’s why I want to see if there is any ability to discuss this with you without it getting personal, which is exactly what was warned about...
So, that’s where it’s at now... and I can go into the subject again, but not with it getting personal... because that’s what will get this shut down...
What you posted is exactly how I feel on Obama’s BC
But I will further add that I think Obama was born on US soil but that there is other embarrassing material on the BC. That when he is forced to open up his BC, he will be forced to open up other records such as his Occidental and Columbia transcripts
Which will be so fitting since the only way this skunk became US Senator was by getting the sealed divorce records (sealed!!) of his opponent opened. This was David Axelrod’s skulduggery and he has never been called on it. If not for this Obama would still be a nothing in the Illinois state senate
"Responsible people in the conservative/GOP arena" - you haven't named any. So who are these supposedly responsible members of the GOP/Conservatives?
They succeeded in “excommunicating” the Birchers. It’s probably impossible to do the same to the birthers, because today the right wing is too vast to mount much of a conspiracy. The birthers are likely to be with us for as long as Obama is president--and because of them, it is more likely that this will be for the next 7½ rather than just 3½ years.
You said — You’re confusing bad behavior with honest and fact-supported, logic-supported disagreement with your position.
—
Okay... then... “game on”... LOL... I’ll get back to the discussions at hand...
[ ... have to catch up on some back posts, but I’m sure you’ll catch me as I start going again...]
It is a sport among conservatives to bash other conservatives and those not considered conservative enough. It’s a lot easier than the hard work of winning over the majority of the people of this country to the conservative side.
Obama got his opponents divorce records opened up and it paid off big for him.....Got this nobody into the US Senate
We get Obama’s birth certificate opened up and it will pay off big for us. I see a perfect symmetry
You said — “Responsible people in the conservative/GOP arena” - you haven’t named any. So who are these supposedly responsible members of the GOP/Conservatives?
—
Well, I’m sorry to tell you then.. I voted for Bush/Cheney two times. I’m sorry you didn’t... LOL..
And to tell you the truth, I love reading Ann Coulter... but maybe you don’t. And that’s okay, but I do like Ann Coulter.
I also mentioned Sarah Palin, and I know that some conservatives here don’t like her, but actually she was the one I voted for in the last election...
What can I say... they’re just my kind of people... :-)
Maybe inadvertantly, you demonstrate the problem. You first asked how Obama could be a citizen since he had a non-citizen father. When the poster answered your question, you moved the goalpost, asking what hospital he was born in.
The fact is, the issue is whether Obama was born in this country or not; questioning his citizenship on the basis of his father’s origin distracts from that question.
There are facts nobody disputes: Obama’s father was a non-citizen, his mother was a citizen.
Those two facts do not answer the question of whether Obama is a citizen, except that, as the WSJ article explains, Obama can only be a citizen in this circumstance if he was born in the United States.
So the only dispute is whether he was born in the United States, and the other issue is a canard.
I can't believe someone would even post that here, you need to go back and read the Constitution as it pertains to this issue.
Oh, welcome to FR
That is another example of the problem — sure, the issue is that Obama is a liar and a dissembler and likes his secrets.
But NONE of that makes him disqualified to be President — only the question of where he was born matters for that.
But your post suggests that even proving he was born in Hawaii wouldn’t answer the questions or end the dispute.
Which is the point the WSJ was making — nothing Obama could do would matter, even if he cared to do anything. And there’s no reason for him to do anything except raise the heat on those arguing this point, which undercuts the conservative fight against his health care plan.
You said — We get Obama’s birth certificate opened up and it will pay off big for us. I see a perfect symmetry
—
Well, this whole issue from the beginning has been more about *getting the birth certificate* — than really — even the information that is inside it. By that I mean that I’m fairly well satisfied right now that Obama was born in Hawaii and that he is a natural-born American citizen. But, I don’t think that’s makes a difference to some here. I think that some want the birth certificate to be shown — “just for the sake of saying they got it shown” regardless if Obama is qualified per the Constitution. I think that this is what a lot of this is about.
BUT, having said that — I can say that all this talk about getting the birth certificate is going nowhere because there is no legal requirement for it to be shown. So, people are without anything to *compel it*... that’s the problem.
And the solution is to get the state law that requires a candidate to show the birth certificate or else he cannot be placed on the ballot in the state.
*That* is what gets you the birth certificate. All the posting and reasoning and articles and talking to people and hollering as loud as you can — doesn’t get the birth certificate.
I’ve already seen what the courts *cannot do* over a year of it and nothing happening. So, I’m not counting on that to work.
So, if you see a perfect symmetry there, then your symmetry is not going to work unless you get that law going... :-)
It is unfortunate that the current law of the land says that if you are born here, you are a citizen. But that point is entirely moot to the question of Obama, being born before the current law took effect.
However, it is clear that a person born in America to a US Citizen should be a citizen. Otherwise, every child born in this country would have to provide proof that the father was American in order to get citizenship.
Further, "natural born" is a qualifier applied to citizenship, indicating not whether someone IS a citizen, but rather that they were born a citizen, and born within the borders of the country. If you are NOT a citizen, you can't be a natural-born citizen. If you were BORN a citizen, and you were born in this country, you are a natural born citizen.
That’s because the Constitution does not define the term “natural born”, and citizenship is defined by law.
They gave themselves an exception in the same clause of the constitution. Had you read fully you would have seen that.
Because he is trying to socialize the country, and no matter how much he points to the birth certificate controversy to say his opponents are crazy, people are still scared to death he is going to ruin their health care, and they will lose their jobs, and the economy will go south.
Those pushing the birth certificate controversy deserve NO credit for the falling poll numbers, and are likely helping Obama against all the other criticism. It is fantasy to believe that the BC issue resonates with ANYBODY beyond those who already oppose Obama.
Yes he was. I was just making the comment in response to the person who stated that someone with a foreign born parent is not “natural born” (and by implication, not eligible to run for president).
You asked — What law did those lawyers looking over their shoulders use to come to the conclusion that Obama is a natural born citizen?
—
They’re not going to discuss the State of Hawaii business with me as to what their lawyers did and consulted with the State about. I *can guarantee* that the State would do that — but I can’t get in the middle of those discussions with the State of Hawaii officials and tell you what laws they were talking about.
And you can’t get in the middle of those meeting. And no reporter can get in the middle of those legal meetings. So, I have no idea why you think anyone is going to be able to tell you confidential information about the State of Hawaii business on a matter like this.
But, I can tell you that the lawyers are going to give them their best legal advice and they are not going to steer the State of Hawaii the wrong way or put the State in jeopardy by saying something false. If they did that, told the state officials to lie, or cover up something they would be violating their responsibilities and would be disbarred for doing anything illegal like that.
Those lawyers are going to be *forcing* the State of Hawaii to do the right thing, simply by telling them their best legal advice — to say exactly what the situation is and be perfectly honest about it — or else if they don’t, they are not advising the State of Hawaii in its best interests.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.