Posted on 07/06/2009 8:50:37 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
July 1, 2009 — “Absolutely amazing” and “absolutely gobsmacking” are exclamations made by scientists analyzing the fossilized skin of a hadrosaur known as Dakota. The researchers found cell structures and organic matter in the skin and layers that resemble the skin of birds and crocodiles.
The specimen was uncovered in 1999 on a North Dakota ranch and is still being analyzed. Photos on the BBC News show clear scales and cross sections of microscopic tendon structures. The article said, “Tests have shown that the fossil still holds cell-like structures,” adding, “although the proteins that made up the hadrosaur’s skin had degraded, the amino acid building blocks that once made up the proteins were still present.”
How could soft tissue structures and details survive intact for 66 million years?...
(Excerpt) Read more at creationsafaris.com ...
As in, maybe if you understood what you're reading when they said:
Such a discovery was possible because the dinosaur's skin fossilized before bacteria had a chance to eat up the tissue.
....you'd know that "fossilized" skin is skin that has had it's structures replaced by "minerals".......and yes, they found some amino acids in the minerals.....but they in no freakin' way found "skin cells"....or "skin"....any more than finding a "fossilized bone" means you're finding a "bone."
What they did not even BEGIN to find was "skin" or "skin cells" or even "proteins that make up skin cells"......amino acids only...precursors to proteins.
I believe the global flood that happened ~4500 years ago buried the beasts and from that we get the fossilized record. So, in my estimation, the fossil record is your evidence for "recent" dinosaurs.
Don’t toss global warming into the mix—I don’t believe in anthropogenic global warming anyway, and you are only bringing it up to muddy the waters.
The reason I bring it up is that AGW is passed on as "accepted scientific fact" by various and sundry entities. I use it to make the argument that perhaps not all "scientific fact" is science as much as it is a belief system.
Googled the O2 exchange rate and came up with this- seems to be a subject of continuing study:
[LUNG VENTILATION AND GAS EXCHANGE IN THEROPOD DINOSAURS
John A. Ruben and his colleagues suggest (Reports, 14 Nov. 1997, p. 1267) that the lung
of theropod dinosaurs was most likely similar in form to that of several extant reptiles and was
therefore incapable of sustaining high oxygen (O2) exchange rates characteristic of endothermy.
We disagree for two reasons. First, we examined the comparative physiology literature and
determined that maximum oxygen exchange rates (VO2max) of some extant reptiles overlap the
oxygen consumption rates measured in some mammals during activity. Specifically,
exceptionally active reptiles with multicameral lungs (1) (for example, monitor lizards and sea
turtles) have values of VO2max that overlap or approach the oxygen exchange rates measured in
similar size mammals during activity (2). Therefore, the septate lung in those reptiles must be
capable of sustaining rates of gas flux characteristic of endotherms. However, mammals and
birds “typically” have a greater VO2max. Therefore, we addressed the question of what
modifications in the oxygen transport system of an extant reptile would be necessary to support
higher rates of oxygen consumption.
We used morphological and physiological measurements of extant reptiles and wellestablished
respiratory equations to model the gas exchange potential of the reptilian oxygen
delivery system and to examine the role of lung structure in constraining gas exchange. Each step
in the oxygen cascade is described by a set of respiratory equations and, consequently, it is
possible to describe mathematically the flux of oxygen through the entire cascade and to evaluate
the impact of modifications in any of its components (3). We used this approach to predict the
effects of modifying several parameters in the oxygen cascade on VO2max in a 1-kilogram
lizard, Varanus exanthematicus (4). Our analysis included four modifications: (i) a small increase
in the maximum cardiac output; (ii) an increased oxygen carrying capacity of the blood from
reptilian to mammalian values; (iii) an increase in maximum cardiac output combined with the
changes in blood oxygen-carrying capacity; and (iv) an increased respiratory gas exchange area
in the dorsal region of the lung through elaboration of the intercameral septa with a membranous
region in the ventral portion of the lung. Without modification of the lung structure, our analysis
predicts that changes in blood oxygen capacity and cardiac output support a VO2max that is 50%
of the value for a “typical” 1-kilogram (kg) mammal (5). However, if we combine these changes
with conservative modifications in lung morphology, we predict a VO2max that is nearly 70% of
the typical mammalian value. Our analysis indicates that modifications in several of the steps of
the oxygen cascade have a cumulative effect on VO2max (6). The resulting high oxygen flux rate
mandates an increase in lung ventilation that is 233% above the maximum level measured in
extant lizards.
Lizards have a mechanical constraint on simultaneous vigorous locomotion and costal
ventilation that arises from the design of the axial musculoskeletal system, and this mechanical
constraint was probably the primitive condition for all tetrapods (7). Consequently, the
fundamental change required to support sustainable high oxygen exchange rates was the
development of new mechanisms to increase ventilation (7). This constraint has been
circumvented to varying degrees in some extant lizards, for example, the use of the gular pump
to assist costal ventilation during activity (8) and in the lineages that gave rise to endotherms by
the evolution of ventilatory mechanics that are not limited by locomotor requirements (7).
Inadequate preservation of the soft-tissue components of the oxygen transport system
precludes accurate assessment of the aerobic potential of theropod dinosaurs. However, on the
basis of metabolic patterns in extant reptiles and our theoretical analysis, we find that the notion
that nonavian septate lungs constrain high oxygen flux rates is not supported. Our analysis
This was taken verbatim from Sciencemag.org.
Science Volume 281, Number 5373, Issue of 3 Jul 1998, p. 45.
suggests that modifications in lung structure were not a prerequisite for supporting higher
oxygen consumption rates. In the mammalian and archosaur lineages that evolved endothermy,
higher oxygen consumption rates could have been supported through changes in ventilatory
mechanics and increases in blood oxygen content and cardiac output.
James W. Hicks
Colleen G. Farmer
Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of California, Irvine, CA 92697,
USA]
PRESERVED T. Rex Soft Tissue RECOVERED (Pic)
Star Tribune | 03.24.05 | Randolph Schmid
Posted on 03/24/2005 3:04:54 PM EST by wallcrawlr
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1369945/posts
Would you Adam ‘n’ Eve it ... dinosaurs in Eden
(CRE-VO) Mixing science with creationism
The Observer | May 22, 2005 | By Paul Harris
Posted on 05/25/2005 12:14:01 AM EDT by restornu
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1409928/posts
24 posted on 05/25/2005 4:13:53 PM EDT by tahotdog
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1409928/posts?page=24#24
Scientists see the softer side of Tyrannosaurus Rex
[Surviving soft tissue w/ pics]
Science Now | 10/1/2006 | staff
Posted on 10/01/2006 11:12:10 AM EDT by Excuse_My_Bellicosity
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1711619/posts
Ancient T. rex and mastodon protein fragments discovered, sequenced
National Science Foundation | 12-Apr-2007 | Cheryl Dybas
Posted on 04/12/2007 3:43:57 PM EDT by AdmSmith
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1816333/posts
BBC: Protein links T. rex to chickens ~ ummm tasty....
BBC | Thursday, 12 April 2007 | Paul Rincon
Posted on 04/12/2007 4:57:11 PM EDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1816370/posts
Scientists Retrieve Proteins From Dinosaur Bone
New York times | April 12, 2007 | John Noble Wilford
Posted on 04/12/2007 5:05:00 PM EDT by gcruse
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1816375/posts
Dinosaur protein sequenced - Lucky find shows up record-breaking fossil.
news@nature.com | 12 April 2007 | Heidi Ledford
Posted on 04/13/2007 6:14:00 PM EDT by neverdem
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1817005/posts
Dinosaur research backs link to birds
AP on Yahoo | 4/14/07 | Randolph E. Schmid - ap
Posted on 04/15/2007 1:18:48 AM EDT by NormsRevenge
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1817592/posts
Oldest Dinosaur Protein Found — Blood Vessels, More
National Geographic | May 1, 2009 | John Roach
Posted on 05/01/2009 11:43:11 PM PDT by nickcarraway
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2242582/posts
- cre/vo “great divide” -
Dinosaur Shocker
(YEC say dinosaur soft tissue couldn’t possibly survive millions of years)
Smithsonian Magazine | May 1, 2006 | Helen Fields
Posted on 05/01/2006 11:29:14 AM EDT by SirLinksalot
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/1624642/posts
The scrambling continues (Fallout over T-rex bone tissue continues)
Answers in Genesis | March 6, 2006 | Staff
Posted on 03/10/2006 9:25:07 AM EST by DaveLoneRanger
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/1593799/posts
Dino Skin Preserved in Rare Fossil Find
Discovery News | November 21, 2006 | Jennifer Viegas
Posted on 11/23/2006 12:43:21 AM EST by DaveLoneRanger
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1742984/posts
Dinosaur Blood Protein, Cells Recovered
(yet more evidence for Young Earth Creation!!!)
CEH | April 30, 2009
Posted on 04/30/2009 6:49:22 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2241706/posts
First dino ‘blood’ extracted from ancient bone (more evidence for young earth creation!)
New Scientist | April 30, 2009 | Jeff Hecht
Posted on 05/01/2009 8:25:18 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2242071/posts
Hadrosaur Soft Tissues Another Blow to Long-Ages Myth
(first T. rex, then another T. rex, now this!)
ICR | May 12, 2009 | Brian Thomas, M.S.
Posted on 05/12/2009 7:26:20 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2249728/posts
As usual you’re way off and disregarding all facts stated.
It was clearly stated to be two legged.
And Marco Polo was well aware of what crocks looked like from Egypt. Nice try though; deception is all you’ve got.
“How could soft tissue structures and details survive intact for 66 million years?”
Easy. They didn’t. The article clearly states so, but apparently only clear enough for a non “creation scientist”.
Read the article. The final question in the post is typical “creation science” misdirection pandering to readers wishful thinking.
It is as if someone claimed to have found an entire Lego City all put together (a skin cell), but all they really could find were a few disconnected Lego blocks (trace amounts of amino acids) and the outline of how the Lego city was once laid out.
And then we have this from Encarta-I guess I’ll never know:
[Earth’s environment during the dinosaurian era was far different than it is today. The days were several minutes shorter than they are today because the gravitational pull of the sun and the moon have over time had a braking influence on Earth’s rotation. Radiation from the Sun was not as strong as it is today because the Sun has been slowly brightening over time.
Other changes in the environment may be linked to the atmosphere. Carbon dioxide, a gas that traps heat from the Sun in Earth’s atmosphere—the so-called greenhouse effect—was several times more abundant in the air during the dinosaurian age. As a result, surface temperatures were warmer and no polar ice caps could form.
The pattern of continents and oceans was also very different during the age of dinosaurs. At the beginning of the dinosaurian era, the continents were united into a gigantic supercontinent called Pangaea (all lands), and the oceans formed a vast world ocean called Panthalassa (all seas). About 200 million years ago, movements of Earth’s crust caused the supercontinent to begin slowly separating into northern and southern continental blocks, which broke apart further into the modern continents by the end of the dinosaurian era.
As a result of these movements of Earth’s crust (see Plate Tectonics), there was less land in equatorial regions than there is at present. Deserts, possibly produced by the warm, greenhouse atmosphere, were widespread across equatorial land, and the tropics were not as rich an environment for life forms as they are today. Plants and animals may have flourished instead in the temperate zones north and south of the equator.
The most obvious differences between dinosaurian and modern environments are the types of life forms present. There were fewer than half as many species of plants and animals on land during the Mesozoic Era than there are today. Bushes and trees appear to have provided the most abundant sources of food for dinosaurs, rather than the rich grasslands that feed most animals today. Although flowering plants appeared during the dinosaurian era, few of them bore nuts or fruit.
The animals of the period had slower metabolisms and smaller brains, suggesting that the pace of life was relatively languid and the behavior patterns were simple. The more active animals—such as ants, wasps, birds, and mammals—first made their appearance during the dinosaurian era but were not as abundant as they are now.
IV Behavior and Physiology
Print this section
The behavior of dinosaurs was governed by their metabolism and by their central nervous system. The dinosaurs’ metabolism—the internal activities that supply the body’s energy needs—affected their activity level. It is unclear whether dinosaurs were purely endothermic (warm-blooded), like modern mammals, or ectothermic (cold-blooded), like modern reptiles. Endotherms regulate their body temperature internally by means of their metabolism, rather than by using the temperature of their surroundings. As a result, they have higher activity levels and higher energy needs than ectotherms. Ectotherms have a slower metabolism and regulate their body temperature by means of their behavior, taking advantage of external temperature variations by sunning themselves to stay warm and resting in the shade to cool down. By determining whether dinosaurs were warm- or cold-blooded, paleontologists could discover whether dinosaurs behaved more like modern mammals or more like modern reptiles.]
And Wiki gives me this:
“The climate of the Cretaceous is less certain and more widely disputed. Higher levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere are thought to have caused the world temperature gradient from north to south to become almost flat: temperatures were about the same across the planet. Average temperatures were also higher than today by about 10°C. In fact, by the middle Cretaceous, equatorial ocean waters (perhaps as warm as 20 °C in the deep ocean) may have been too warm for sea life, and land areas near the equator may have been deserts despite their proximity to water. The circulation of oxygen to the deep ocean may also have been disrupted. For this reason, large volumes of organic matter that was unable to decompose accumulated, eventually being deposited as “black shale”.
Not all of the data support these hypotheses, however. Even with the overall warmth, temperature fluctuations should have been sufficient for the presence of polar ice caps and glaciers, but there is no evidence of either. Quantitative models have also been unable to recreate the flatness of the Cretaceous temperature gradient.[citation needed]
Oxygen levels in the Mesozoic atmosphere were probably lower (12 to 15 %) than today’s level (20 to 21 %). Some researchers have postulated levels of 12 % because that was assumed to be the lowest concentration at which natural combustion could occur. However, a 2008 study concludes that at least 15 % is necessary.”
I wouldn’t waste my time being a Wiki-pedophile...
Well, 4500 years ago is not 2000 years ago, and why do we have bones from people and animals who lived 4500 years ago? Shouldn’t every bone be fossilized?
Sorry for the formatting problem.
It’s too much to bear; one study by the U.S. gov did in 2005 allowed that rising O2 levels led to the rapid growth of the dinosaurs but didn’t go farther than an abstract on that point alone.
By way of ending this fruitless journey for the time being, I leave you this from the Answerbag:
“by Glenn Blaylock64 on Mar 31, 2005 at 2:32 pm Permalink
This answer was last edited on: Apr 1, 2005
It is thought, that the herbivorous dinosaurs grew big as a defensive mechanism. (Today, there are not many (if any) predators that will take on an adult elephant.) In response to this many of the predators grew bigger so that they could take on the large herbivores. So, we had a positive feedback loop that developed. The larger dinosaurs were able to out compete the smaller ones in their quest for survival. So, the genes that would produce yet larger animals were propagated producing larger and larger dinosaurs. That is the theory any way.
BTW, we also saw this happen with mammals after the dinosaurs died out. However, many of the larger mammals died out at the end of the last ice age. Just why is a matter of dispute. Some say it was over hunting by a new species that appeared at about that time (homo sapien sapien, aka Cro-Magnon, aka modern humans). Others say that they died out because they could [not] cope with the rapid climate change that occurred when the ice age ended.”
Wait for me, Alice. Damn it, rabbit!, slow down...
Very true - but I didn't bring up 2000 years ago.
why do we have bones from people and animals who lived 4500 years ago? Shouldn't every bone be fossilized?
Probably not everyone or everything that died in the flood was buried in muck - some probably floated after expiring. Regardless, I don't have a firm grasp on the fossilization process so I couldn't begin to explain why some and not all.
Can you find a contemporaneous artistic depiction of a dinosaur? e.g., a Roman or Greek vase with a dinosaur on it.
You’re welcome to believe what you want, but asserting that dinosaurs were commonplace two thousand years ago makes you sound like a lunatic.
Well...we went to the Georgia Aquarium last spring and the young guide explained the alligator gar swimming above our head was a dinosaur.
Yes, people are free to believe what they want to believe and don't have to regurgitate indoctrination as dictated by the NEA and various other liberals, from global warming to evolution; and no I didn't think of her as a lunatic, but rather the alligator gar hasn't changed much and it looked quite ancient just kind of suspended there, and yet I doubt the thing was all that old actually.
I give up. If you’ve read the thread, you know that we’re talking about LARGE dinosaurs like sauropods, not discussing whether or not alligator gar look primitive.
Is anybody here going to post proof of sauropods walking the earth 2000 years ago? Still waiting.
You didn't read my post at all. It was Blackacre who suggested a croc. I suggested Komodo Dragon.
You also skipped over the part about the toes.
Lastly, the reference talks about "forelegs". There were no dinosaurs with just forelegs. And if he just missed talking about the hind legs, we're back at it being four-legged.
Sorry for jumping on you - my bad.
I do not deny the possibility of life on other planets.....not even “intelligent” life capable fo extra-solar-system travel. Flying saucers? Why not? I think it’s just another piece of the hubrus of Man to think the only life forms in the universe are all on our one planet.
......but there is no reason for me to believe that just because life has been evolving for more years on planet “X” than planet “Y” that the life on planet “X” is “further along” in evolutionary terms such that they’d get to travel through space before the other planet. I’d say that each system would be unique in evolutionary speed and direction.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.