Did Obama Order George Tiller's Murder? (Article about FreeRepublic Alert)

Bliefnet ^ | June 1, 2009 | Steven Waldman

[Zakeet]

I'm wary of drawing too many lessons from anonymous message board comments. One could certainly pluck comments from Beliefnet's boards to prove that we harbor either right wing or left wing extremists.

But it's worth perusing the message boards of FreeRepublic, a conservative community, to gauge the general mood of the most hardcore conservatives.

First, quite a few people are saying that murder is wrong, no matter how evil the victim was.

SnakeDoc:
Thou Shalt Not Murder. Both the shooter and the victim will be judged.

Patriot preacher:
Pro-lifers should condemn this as antithetical to their philosophy and beliefs. Hopefully, the perpetrator will be apprehended and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I will shed no tears that Teller is gone -- but MURDER is MURDER.

Then a large group is making a more practical argument that this was bad because it will backfire. In fact, a startling large number believe Tiller was murdered by Obama or pro-choice allies in order to justify a crackdown on guns or civil liberties:

upchuck:
This serial-killer piece of excrement will be held up by every abortionist and every lover of abortionists as the reason why the Secret Service needs to be assigned to guard every abortionist,every abortion mill and every lover of abortions in this country.

gridlock:
Obama is going to take advantage of this murder to sieze even more control over our society. I would not even put it past them to commit this murder themselves, as an excuse to sieze power. Reichstag Fire, and all that...

jazminerose:
Will form the rationalization for really stomping on pro life groups. Was it one of BO's storm troopers who pulled the trigger?

Then there's a large number of people who flat-out applaud the killing. I'm going to print a lot of them because it's really unfair to pluck a few extreme quotes off any websites message boards. What's amazing is the sheer volulme of people thinking this way:

imahawk:
One less nazi as far as I am concerned.

Turret Gunner A20:
Hope the guy gets away....Do you think that it would have been murder to assignate Hitler? And don't say that the question has no relevance -- this crud was a leading the killer-of-innocents criminal thugs that has already killed throughout the world far more innocents that Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined. His killer did a great service when noone else would do it.

calico_thompson:
Well, at least the perp didn't rip his arms and legs off and then suck his brains out.

Gaffer:
No doubt this 'man' is responsible for thousands, maybe tens-of-thousands of needless and wanton deaths. If you think his 'passing' is a bad thing in the cause of speaking out and ending the practice of abortion, I don't know what to tell you. I can only say that I shall not mourn his demise, nor shall I judge others.

TheDuke:
But, wasn't this just another late term abortion(?)

Slump Tester:
It's too bad the suspect didn't poke a roto rooter through his skull and then suck him into a vacuum cleaner instead of just shooting the bastard.

SampleMan:
Whether he will be judged as a murderer by God may be an open question, and none of us know the answer. In 1942 Reinhard Heydrich was killed in Prague in cold blood. Czech commandos committed what was by the law of the land murder. They were from a country that had surrendered and they were not in uniform. They did this because he was orchestrating the destruction of the Czech people. Did they kill a tyrant or commit murder or both? There is also the case of course of John Brown and slavery. Yes we must obey our laws, until we can no longer live with the result of not obeying them.

babygene:
killing to prevent a serial killer from claiming his next victim probably doesn't fit into the category of murder...

Cheetahcat:
Nothing to see here just his last abortion this one many trimesters Post Birth.

Ahithophel:
He will till no more in the bloody garden of evisceration.

UnwashedPeasant:
What kind of "church" was this? The Wright kind?

steve86:
I guess the allies should not have killed a single Nazi soldier in WWII?

eccentric:
It is not murder to kill someone to save someone else's life.

353FMG:
The shooter had to kill in order to save the lives of numerous future children. If the shooter is considered a murderer, then so are our brave soldiers. They (the soldiers) have to kill in order to save our lives from the constant threat of terrorism.

mrsmel:
It's too bad, when murderers on the left who really did target innocent people are rewarded and lauded. This man Tiller was responsible for the horrific deaths of thousands of innocent babies, and we are supposed to be shame-faced that someone stopped him in his tracks from jabbing scissors into yet another babies' head and sucking their life out.

and from another thread:

Canedawg:
i wouldnt feel too badly if some of the communists in our govt met a similar fate. That doesnt mean i am about to go around killing anyone, but if someone else does the deed, i wont be crying over the tainted blood of treasonous actors and infanticiders.

Glenn:
How about rejoicing for all the children this "Doctor" will not murder now?

Flintlock:
I tried to get upset about this.
I failed.
My bad, I guess.

stockpirate:
God BLESS the man that killed Tiller.
It is time the left started to feel the wrath of conservatives.
There is a time for peace and a time for war.
Jesus said I came not to bring peace but a sword. Those who beat their swords into plows will plow for those who do not.
A people unwilling to use extreme violence to preserve their liberty deserve the tyrants that rule them. The two phrases are written over the doors of the Justice Department in DC, "Repression breeds violence" and "Where justice ends, tyranny begins"
Certainly the unborn are suffering under the boot of tyranny and are being repressed by the ungodly.
Rightous men have an obligation to change the wanton murder of the unborn.
A nation that allows the murder of the unborn deserves God's harsh judgement.

and this thread:

Lexington Green:
What goes around...

newfreep:
Whatever "church" Tiller attends must be worshipping satan.

IDRATHERNOT:
Tiller Shot & Killed? Thousands of unborn children claim self defense.

wardaddy:
he reaped what he's sowed same as anyone so evil

Sloth:
*shrug* Genocide has consequences.

The Sons of Liberty:
Shooting was too good for him. Too bad his body wasn't torn to pieces like his victims.
May he burn in hell for eternity.

wardaddy:
This guy wa a monster period.
Did you cry when Dahmer got killed in the joint?
Would you worry about Manson?
nothing personal but ya'll are soft as butter.
I make no apologies whatsoever, folks here will be ill prepared for where we're headed.

whatisthetruth:
I'm only surprised this didn't happen sooner, couldn't have happened to a better man, IMO.

P-Marlowe:
If you TRULY believe that Abortion is murder, then you cannot condemn anyone who would do anything to stop this mass murderer from continuing in his crimes. This is where the rubber meets the road. If you call abortion murder, then this was justifiable homicide. If abortion is not murder, then Tiller was the victim of a heinous crime and his killer should be condemned.

mjp:
Sometimes retaliatory force is necessary to stop initiation of force by those who are violating natural rights. Preservation of life and natural rights of the innocent is a natural duty that God requires.

tips up:
If the killer just put scissors into his skull, it would be considered a late term abortion (60+ years late) and he would be a hero of the left, rather than a domestic terrorist.

gscc:
I suppose if Hitler had been assassinated there would have been many "good" Germans who would have looked at the assassin as a "crazy". Let's face it - this country has lost it's soul. We live in a post-Judeo-Christian nation and it will only go down hill from here. There will certainly be many "good" Americans that lament the passing of this evil man. With a federal government, press and apostate "church" firmly entrenched in liberal secular theology we are witnessing the end of the founder's America.

MichiganConservative:
It's abortion in the 272nd tri-mester (ROTFLMAO)
Post-extraction lead-induced termination.

[Shaun_MD]

As a matter of fact, I’m pretty sure this is the first time I’ve ever voiced my beliefs on the subject.

[P-Marlowe]

Pulling the fate of Roeder into the picture is not very helpful.

Sorry but it is part of the picture.

Have you ever publicly stated that ABORTION IS MURDER?

What if it was your post that helped to fuel the fire in Roeder's mind to commit this act?

Would you be sorry that you were partially responsible for his fury?

Would you take back your sentiments?

[palmer]

I have to ask those who so roundly condemn what Roeder did whether or not they TRULY believe that ABORTION IS MURDER? Well do you? Do you really?

Personally I have not done much to help save the unborn other than donating to pro-life politicians. I have deep respect for those who have done much more. It doesn't change the facts about Tiller's murder. A new killer will replace Tiller.

[bdeaner]

Frankly the concept of "backlash" from people who approve of murdering babies is a bit bizarre.

Bizaree indeed.

This lady might be first in line:



I'm sure the baby would be saying to itself, "Sure, Mom, it's up to you if you want to suck out my brain. After all, it's your choice."

Un-freaking-believable.

[P-Marlowe]

As a matter of fact, I’m pretty sure this is the first time I’ve ever voiced my beliefs on the subject.

Then I guess you are free of any guilt. But what about the next guy?

[HiTech RedNeck]

I start with the premise that God is sovereign. Any and all creaturely acts of will that occur in His creation happen only with His permission, and the circumstances and consequences are always steered according to His will.

I therefore don’t worry about whether or not Roeder was influenced by my comments on the morality of abortion. We are separately accountable to God.

[P-Marlowe]

You didn't answer the question.

Do you believe that ABORTION IS MURDER?

[palmer]

Not all abortion is murder. That is my personal belief.

[Minn]

Again, a grammar criticism ~ I used "counsel" passively. As in "they were counseled by the act". I did not suggest that anyone go out and "counsel them by ripping their arms off" or anything like that.

Anybody that reads: "but it does counsel the abortionists that they are not immortal ~ something which is probably a surprise to many of them" knows exactly what you meant. Just as everybody knows what Guido means when he says "It's a fine little family you got there. It'd sure shame if something happened to them".

[Cheetahcat]

Zero??? it would fit the Rat mode of operation.

[MHGinTN]

You are no doubt correct that the enemedia is squelching further exporation of this topic because they don't want the truth to pop out of their control. But I must take small issue with something else you wrote:
"Once people begin to realize that this man made millions of dollars killing fully formed fetuses most reasonable people will be disgusted." I'm afarind it is far worse than you portrayed ... Tiller was a serial killer offing by gruesome means alive unborn children who were fully viable, that means fully able to live out side the female's body. Tiller was a serial killer of alive unborn children in every application of the term to common sense. Even in responding to the outrage you like many of us have fallen into conformity which has been dictated by the defenders of this evil. They have set the phrasing and we have adopted it. Ask yourself, is abortion a form of birth control? If I'm equating abortion killing with contraception, I've fallen to the conformity dictated by the dead-soul leftists. And it is a deceit, a purposed ruse. Abortion is most certainly 'birth control', but it is conflated to contraception as a means to manipulate and fool the under-educated. Contraception is birth control, but on a completely different set of values, not killing an already alive being at an earliest age in their lifetime.

BTW, the fetus age begins at eight weeks and runs for up to forty weeks from the day of coming into existence. By the twentieth week from coming into existence, a person has a chance of living outside of the womb, albeit with mighty help from a few friends. Try to use the term 'viable babies' when referring to the victims of George Tiller's serial killing, it's more accurate, more to the point and actually irrefutably correct. Tiller the killer pridefully announce on at least one occasion that he would terminate a pregnancy all the way to the fortieth week.

[Shaun_MD]

In all of the previous comments I have yet to hear one person say anything about the women undergoing these abortions. It’s as if the Doctor held these women down at gun point and forced them to have abortions.

[palmer]

Maybe someone should ask them if Roeder is justified to shoot each woman coming out of the clinic.

[bdeaner]

I personally do not condone the murder of Tiller, because I think the person who murdered Tiller was not operating from principles of a "just war." Essentially, that is what the killer did -- go to war over abortion, and Tiller is a casuality in that war.

Generally, vigilante justice is not considered to be a just war.

But an interesting question is this: At one point would it become necessary to wage a "just war" against abortion? What would be those conditions? And who and by whom would it be waged? I'm not asking for answers necessarily, but just putting the question out there. It's something I've been thinking about.

Here is an interesting thread on just war theory.

I am not about to join some fringe para-military group. I think we still have political and legal avenues to remedy the injustice of abortion. It is far too premature to succumb to violence at this point, which could cause many more deaths than currently is the case with abortion. That's how I am thinking at the moment.

What bothers me is the way pro-death people talk about Tiller as a hero and a martyr. It seems to take a very sick person to see Tiller as a hero of anything. It is not mutually exclusive to see Tiller as a murderer AND, at the same time, to understand without question that abortion is murder. That is a pro-life stance. It is ALSO consisitent with a pro-life position to argue in favor of just war (and by implication the use of violence) against evil, including at some point, a war against abortion. It is a difficult question, with many moral complexities.

[Shaun_MD]

No lets blame the doctor and end his life. Lets not find fault with the women who sought him out.

[bdeaner]

It is not mutually exclusive to see Tiller as a murderer AND, at the same time, to understand without question that abortion is murder.

CORRECTION: It is not mutually exclusive to see Tiller's killer as a murderer AND, at the same time, to understand without quesiton that abortion is murder.

[Condor51]

I just spent a lot of time on Steven Waldman's beliefnet.com website. And IMO he is a crackpot trying to pass himself off as some new age spiritual guru. And if this was 1870 he'd be selling Snake Oil in Cattle Towns: "My magic elixir cures everything!"

Now. As to this tripe article cherry-picking Freeper comments, I'll say this:

Evil begets evil.
BUT -- Two wrongs DON'T make a right.

The fact is Tiller was killed by a mentally ill psychotic.
Waldman can quote that.

[mass55th]

I’m offended he didn’t pick any of my comments to highlight. I feel discriminated against. Maybe I should file a lawsuit.

[bdeaner]

No lets blame the doctor and end his life. Lets not find fault with the women who sought him out.

An MD has the credentials to understand what he or she is doing. Women in an irrational emotional state, who do not fully understand the medical and moral reality of what they are doing, are relatively much less culpable, IMHO.

[kalee]

Waldman can quote that.

But it is doubtful he will.