Hadrosaur Soft Tissues Another Blow to Long-Ages Myth (first T. rex, then another T. rex, now this!)

ICR ^ | May 12, 2009 | Brian Thomas, M.S.

[GodGunsGuts]

Hadrosaur Soft Tissues Another Blow to Long-Ages Myth

by Brian Thomas, M.S.*

Recently-discovered dinosaur soft tissues, and even blood cells, represent some of the biggest hurdles for long-age evolutionary belief. Soft tissue was found in the femur of a large Tyrannosaurus rex about a decade ago, and more was discovered in another T. rex a few years later. And recently, soft tissues with proteins were found in a hadrosaur from Montana...

[allmendream]

One doesn't need to demineralize bone to detect collagen on it.

Yet these FOSSILIZED bones needed to be demineralized.

Do you know the difference between a fossil and a bone?

Why is it that we find bones of modern species but not fossils, and why do we find fossils of dinosaurs but no bones?

[Alamo-Girl]

Evos who claim to be Christians have the same attitude towards others that they accuse creationists of having. The characteristics they condemn most in creationists are the ones they exhibit most themselves.

By my understanding, that is true across the board because for a person to judge a behavior he must know what that behavior "is."

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. - Romans 2:1

To God be the glory!

[Alamo-Girl]

Geocentric Christians?

LOLOL! They are rare - very, very, very rate.

[GodGunsGuts]

They have to demineralize the naturally mineralized sections of the cortical bone to get at the soft tissue. If everything was mineralized, there would be no soft tissue left behind after demineralization! I wonder, would your answers be better or worse if you had actually finished your Temple of Darwin Ph.D. indoctrination program?

[Alamo-Girl]

In my experience, the reverse has been true. That is, the more I know about science and mathematics, the more I'm convinced that God is the creator and sustainer of the universe. For example, I find the big bang/inflationary model corresponds exceptionally well with the biblical cosmology.

I agree!

Thank you so very much for your wonderful testimony and essay-post, dearest sister in Christ!

[Alamo-Girl]

He has placed before humankind Jesus, the Son of Resurrection who has defeated death, so that whoever believes will likewise gain eternal life. Through mercy alone He opens the hearts of those who believe and are saved, yet the lost are so because they reject any promptings on His part.

Amen!

Thank you so very much for your beautiful testimony, dear brother in Christ!

[GodGunsGuts]

==Knowing science has only strengthened my faith in God.

Your idea of science has caused you to give random processes plus survival credit for God’s will and creative genius! What makes you think you can get away with making common cause with these materialist pirates?

[betty boop]

Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that neither Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI were or are Creationists.

You are using the term "Creationist." I am using the term "creationist." Both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI believe that God created the universe. Neither has claimed that it is only 6,000 years old. In this sense, they are "creationists" with a lower-case "c." Or just dump the term altogether: Christians believe that God created the universe, and out of nothing to boot.

The evolution issue is separate from this because evolution is not a theory of creation, or of the origin of life. Why did you bring it up? But since you did, these two men accept the "more-than-hypothesis" of evolution. What they reject is that it is a blind, undirected, non-teleological process. And they understand that life is a divine creation, not the effect of a combination of matter and natural forces.

So where does this leave Darwin's theory? You yourself quoted Pope John Paul II on this matter, as evidence that he supported evolution:

...the theories of evolution which, as a result of the philosophies which inspire them, consider the spirit as emerging from forces of living matter or as a simple epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. They are moreover incapable of laying the foundation for the dignity of the person.

Read between the lines here, allmendream! This is hardly an endorsement of Darwin's macroevolutionary theory.

I gather you wanted to cite evidence to show that because Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI spoke favorably of evolution in concept, somehow this constitutes logical proof that they were not "Creationists." This entire line of thinking seems like a non sequitur to me.

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed. Thank you so very much for your excellent analysis, dearest sister in Christ!

[GodGunsGuts]

==Yet these FOSSILIZED bones needed to be demineralized.

Yeah, that’s why they had to demineralize recently defleshed ostrich bone to get at the same soft tissue...LOL!

[betty boop]

By my understanding, that is true across the board because for a person to judge a behavior he must know what that behavior "is."

Here's an interesting speculation: We tend to see in others what we see in ourselves. If we have a cooperative nature, we tend to expect that other people are likewise. If we are a cynic, always expecting the worst, then we imagine that other people do likewise. Or if we cheat people, we expect other people are cheaters too.

Or as a wise man once said, "If we misbehave, we suspect others."

God tells us "judge not, lest ye shall be judged." That is, by the very same standard that we apply in judgment of others. Seems best to me not to be "judgmental."

Good night, dearest sisters in Christ! Hope to catch up tomorrow.

[count-your-change]

“soft tissue” simply means everything but bone its self and softening bone by acid treatment doesn't turn it into “soft tissue”. A chicken wing off my table might be acid treated to free up the collagen and other soft tissue for examination.
Straining at gnats will get you lots of gnats but not much else.

There are two ways for things to become fossilized, either replacement of the original substance with new mineral or covering over the object and thus preserving it.
It appears the tissue in the article was of the second kind.

Modern species? How modern? Mammoths, Middle Ages, Monday last?

“Why are there not human and horse skeletons found that are fossilized to an equal degree?”

You haven't offered any info. to suggest what it is you're asking. Why would we expect them to be fossilized to an equal degree? Or not?

[Alamo-Girl]

Beautiful pearls of wisdom, dearest sister in Christ, thank you!

Truly, God's justice is perfect. We build the scales whereby we will be judged - weight by weight, measure by measure.

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. - Matthew 7:1-2

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

[count-your-change]

An old trick! Soak a bone in vinegar and it becomes more flexible as the minerals are dissolved. Or a boiled egg works pretty well too as the shell softens.

[allmendream]

Do you think God has no power over random processes?

Random is not synonymous with “out of the control of God”.

It is you who thinks God’s will and creative genius is limited to your own conception of it from what little you understand of scripture; rather than revealed, as scripture said it would be, by the evidence of the natural world.

The heavens proclaim the glory of God.

A Creationist has to pretend it is all a lie and a trick with the false “appearance of age”.

[allmendream]

A non sequeter?

You bring up the Popes as false evidence that my statement that Creationism is the refuge of the ignorant was incorrect.

Me pointing out that both Popes agree with me, and neither agrees with you, as to the particulars of the intersection of science and faith is hardly apart from the subject under discussion.

And I agree completely with Pope John Paul II that any philosophy that concludes that the human spirit arises from physicality rather than from the glory of God are completely incompatible with the truth. This was not at all a condemnation of the scientific theory of evolution, but of a philosphy which would claim that man’s spirit is not from God.

Evolution is not a theory about the creation of life (refreshing to hear a Creationist admit it, as conflating the two seems one of their favorite tactics), but of the origin of species. Creationism as a movement formed in oposition to the idea that species formed by means of natural development from other species and insist that all species were created nearly contemporaneously in their present form.

This is, despite your rather lame attempt to claim otherwise, NOT the view of either of the last two Popes.

[allmendream]

It is sometimes hard to follow Creationist “logic”, claiming to not believe in evolution while simultaneously claiming that evolution is powerful enough to evolve all modern species from those Noah could fit on a boat.

But according to the idea that all animals were created nearly contemporaneously, wouldn't one expect to find fossils of all types of animals in all strata possible before they went extinct, and all in the SAME states of fossilization?

Yet this is not what scientists observe. They find no bones of humans or horses that have been fossilized to the extent that dinosaur bones have. They find no unfossilized bones of dinosaurs.

This is exactly what one would expect if fossilization took a long time, and humans and horses have not been around that long.

This is exactly what one would expect if bone didn't survive unless partially fossilized, and dinosaurs have been extinct for a long time.

How modern? I mentioned horses and humans.

Why would we expect them to be fossilized to an equal degree? Because if Creationism had any validity (which it doesn't) then all animals lived at the same time and we would expect them to be fossilized to an equal degree; yet they are NOT.

How do you explain this?

So far no Creationist has even attempted an answer to this very apt question.

Why do we find only fossilized dinosaur bones, not ever any unfossilized bones?

Why do we NOT find fossilized bones of horses and humans to an equal degree?

[GodGunsGuts]

I guess this also was a “trick”...LOL!

On July 31, 2007, Mary Schweitzer answered selected viewer questions about her discovery of what may be T. rex blood vessels and red blood cells...

Q: As I recall, you soaked fossils in a mild acid to dissolve the mineral deposits on the inside of the bones. Why does the acid not harm or dissolve the vessels as well, but instead leaves them intact and pliable?
Paul Moffett, Indianapolis, Indiana

A: That is a good question. The type of acid we use is very commonly applied to remove the mineral from modern bone to reveal the structural proteins that are so intimately linked to the mineral. It is a very mild acid and is more accurately a metal chelator than a true “acid.” So it removes the mineral while leaving the protein intact, and it does not harm cell membranes or vessels in modern bone, so we hoped that it would not in our ancient material either.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3411/01-ask.html

[GodGunsGuts]

==But according to the idea that all animals were created nearly contemporaneously, wouldn't one expect to find fossils of all types of animals in all strata possible before they went extinct, and all in the SAME states of fossilization?

Obviously, fossils from six thousand years ago are going to be in a lesser state of preservation than fossils from let's say 500 years ago. But given the chart below, it would certainly seem like everything from recent animals to dinos are in a state of VERY SIMILAR FOSSILIZATION!

Table 1

Geological age and depositional setting of study specimens.

geological age	specimen (taxon, element)	taphonomic setting	preservation observations	collagenase reactivity	relevant publications
Recent (ca 9 months to 1.5 years post-mortem)	ostrich (Struthio camelus), femur, tibia	5 days natural degradation, stored with desiccant	collagen intact; vessels, osteocytes present	+	Schweitzer et al. 2005a,b
Recent (ca 2–3 years post-mortem)	emu (Dromaius novaehollandiae), femur, tibia	buried 2 years, exhumed	collagen intact; vessels, osteocytes present	+	Schweitzer et al. 2005b
Recent (14+ years post-mortem)	ostrich (Struthio camelus), femur	−20oC storage ca 2 years, then at room temperature for ca 12 years, untreated	collagen intact; vessels, osteocytes present	+	Schweitzer et al. 2005a
Recent (800–1200 years)	moa (MOR-OFT255), proximal femur	cave deposits, New Zealand	collagen intact, pigmented; vessels, osteocytes present	+	n.a.
Recent (ca 1000 years)	bison (Bison bison), rib	exposed and weathered	collagen intact, pigmented; vessels, osteocytes present	+	n.a.
Holocene (ca 12ka)	mammoth (Mammuthus columbi) (MOR 91.72), femur	aeolian silt or loess, underlying palaeosols	fibrous collagen tunnelled and degraded; no visible osteocytes or vessels	+	n.a.
Pleistocene (ca 300ka)	mammoth (Mammuthus columbi) (MOR 604), skull	Eastern Montana, Doeden gravel beds, fluvial, river sands	collagen thin, fibrous, vessels and osteocytes pigmented	+	Hill & Schweitzer 1999; Schweitzer et al. 2002
Late Pleistocene (ca 300ka)	mastodon (Mammut americanum) (MOR 605), rib	Eastern Montana, Doeden gravel beds, fluvial, river sands	collagen fragmented, fibrous, abundant nucleated osteocytes	+	Hill 1998
Pliocene (2Ma)	manatee (Trichechidae spp.) (UF123664), rib	depositional environment not known	matrix creamy, no vessels, cells free-floating, fragmented	n.a.	n.a.
Late Miocene–Early Pliocene (2.0–14.0Myr)	whale (cf. Balaenoptera) (WCBa-20), vertebra	Pisco Formation, Peru; marine, diatomaceous silt and tuffaceous mudstone; articulated, some apparent baleen	matrix creamy, no vessels, cells present but fragmented	n.a.	Esperante-Caamano et al. 2002; Brand 2003, 2004; Esperante 2002
Early Miocene (23.5–5Myr)	Megoeodon grandis (MOR 396), phalanx	siltstone deposit	little dissolution of mineral in EDTA; isolated crystalline vessels, no cells	n.a.	n.a.
Late Cretaceous, Maastrichtian (66.5–67.0Myr)	Tyrannosaurus rex (MOR 555), tibia	Hell Creek Formation, Eastern Montana; fluvial–overbank; consolidated white sandstone mixed with fine-grained mud and plant material; articulated, approximately 90% complete	matrix preservation variable, vessels and osteocytes present; vessels flexible, or crystalline; some bone fragments resist EDTA demineralization	−	Schweitzer et al. 1997a,b, 1999a,b; Horner & Padian 2004, 2005a
Late Cretaceous, Maastrichtian (66.5–67.0Myr)	Tyrannosaurus rex (MOR 1128), associated fragments	Hell Creek Formation, Eastern Montana; mudstone/overbank	no visible dissolution of mineral, no soft tissue recovered	n.a.	Horner & Padian 2004
Late Cretaceous, Maastrichtian (66.5–67.0Myr)	Tyrannosaurus rex (FMNH-PR-2081), associated fragments	Hell Creek Formation, fluvial/point bar; loosely consolidated sandstone with Unio, freshwater snail, gar, turtle, some elements encrusted in pyrite	variable recovery of soft tissue, sheet-like matrix and flexible vessels, osteocytes; some crystalline elements resist demineralization	−	Brochu 2003; Erickson et al. 2004; Erickson 2005; Schweitzer et al. 2005a
Late Cretaceous, Maastrichtian (66.5–67.0 Myr)	Tyrannosaurus rex (BHI 3033), associated fragments	fluvial/point bar, seasonally dry; bones weathered, well-preserved plant material associated	no visible dissolution of mineral, no soft tissue recovered	n.a.	n.a.
Late Cretaceous, Maastrichtian (66.5Ma)	Triceratops horridus (MOR 699), juvenile, rib	Hell Creek Formation, Eastern Montana; fluvial/channel sandstone; skull, associated elements, ribs	soft tissues rare, sheet-like matrix, flexible vessels, osteocytes present	−	n.a.
Late Cretaceous, Maastrichtian (68–70Myr)	Tyrannosaurus rex (MOR 1125), femur	Hell Creek Formation, Eastern Montana; fluvial/estuarine, associated skeletal elements, skull and limbs	sheet-like matrix, vessels flexible, osteocytes with long filipodia	−	Horner & Padian 2004; Schweitzer et al. 2005a
Late Cretaceous, Maastrichtian (68–70Myr)	Madagascar theropod (UA 9044), rib	Maevarano Formation in Mahajanga Basin, fine grained debris flow, sandstone dominating with some muds intermixed	matrix creamy, transparent flexible vessels; plant/fungal contamination in vessels; no osteocytes observed	n.a.	Rogers et al. 2000; Rogers 2005
Early Cretaceous, Albian (92–108Myr)	Santana theropod (MN 4802-V), associated fragment	depositional conditions unknown	very small remnant of flexible matrix after demineralization	n.a.	Kellner 1996
Early Campanian (78Ma)	Brachylophosaur canadensis (MOR 794), associated fragments	Lower Judith River Formation; medium-grain sandstone; articulated, virtually complete; skin impressions in surrounding sediments	variable preservation of matrix, vessels and osteocytes, mostly crystalline morphs, rarely flexible tissue	n.a.	Harmon 1997; Adams & Organ 2005; Prieto-Marquez 2005
Triassic (ca 200Ma)	dicynodont (NCSM 21719), femur	North Carolina, not in situ; medium/coarse-grained sands; partially articulated limb	dissolved completely in EDTA; no soft tissue recovered	n.a.	Green et al. 2005

Proc Biol Sci. 2007 January 22; 274(1607): 183–197.

Published online 2006 October 31. doi: 10.1098/rspb.2006.3705.

Copyright This journal is © 2006 The Royal Society

[GodGunsGuts]

All you are saying is that even what appears to be random to our finite minds is not random to God. And it is you who pretend treat God’s Word like it is a lie, and try to convince your “fellow” Christians that God’s creation is really just the product of long ages, random processes, a life-giving materialist miracle, more random processes, and dumb survival.