Posted on 04/22/2009 7:12:17 AM PDT by AmericanHunter
When Texas Gov. Rick Perry floated the idea of secession if the federal government continues to pursue an aggressive tax-and-spend policy, the mainstream media, as well as the political establishment, cringed.
MSNBC’s Chris Matthews called talk of secession “whack-job stuff,” calling Mr. Perry a “bozo” and telling the Texas governor, “You don’t have a choice buddy.” Mr. Matthews’ colleague, Rachael Maddow, said Mr. Perry was “flirting to the point of adultery” by talking about secession, while commentator Thomas Frank reinforced the disconnect between the media and many Americans.
“What you’re seeing … what is one of the surprising things about these tea parties … surprising to people like you and me, is how mainstream extremism is in the Republican Party and the conservative movement,” Mr. Frank, author of Wrecking Crew: How Conservatives Rule, told Ms. Maddow.
But is the idea of secession a foreign concept to the American experience? Is talk of secession automatically treasonous? Is any secessionist movement doomed to be defined by the Civil War and exiled to the political wilderness?
“I think the biggest surprise to me was the outrage expressed by an individual who even thinks ... along these lines,” U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, said yesterday on CNN’s American Morning.
“Because I heard people say, well, ‘this was treason,’ they say, and ‘this was un-American.’ But don’t they remember how we came in to our being? We used secession. We seceded from England. So it’s a very good principle. It’s a principle of a free society. It’s a shame we don’t have it anymore.”
Dr. Paul, who ran a hard fought grassroots campaign for the Republican nomination in 2008, argued the principle of secession is one that protects the union rather than threatens it.
“I argue that if you have the principle of secession, our federal government wouldn’t be as intrusive into state affairs. And to me, that would be very good,” Dr. Paul said. “We as a nation have endorsed secession all along. I mean, think of all the secession of the countries and the Republicans from the Soviet system. We were delighted. We love it. And yet we get hysterical over this.”
Critics of the coverage of the secession comment argue the media is trying to paint the Republican Party as extreme. They say Mr. Perry was not advocating secession, but rather saying the federal government could cause its resurrection.
“We got a great union. There’s absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that?” Mr. Perry asked.
While the notion of secession was floated by Mr. Perry, he was not expressly advocating Texas leave the Union. Rather, the Texas governor used the idea in a manner Dr. Paul believes is historically accurate — to send a warning shot across the bow of a federal government that is encroaching on state’s rights and individual liberties.
Last week’s tea parties exposed a major rift in the country, and some are concerned the Obama administration does not understand the degree of dissent that is fomenting outside the Beltway. And despite panning by the political establishment, the majority of the nation viewed tea party dissent in a favorable light.
Fifty-one percent of Americans had a favorable view of the nationwide rallies, while 32 percent responded their view was very favorable, according to a poll released by Rasmussen Reports. A third of the nation had an unfavorable view with 15 percent unsure.
But among the nation’s “Political Class,” Rasmussen found just 13 percent held a favorable assessment and zero percent held a very favorable view of the nationwide protest. This disconnect, according to Dr. Paul, is a major part of the problem.
“People are angry. And if we don’t sense that, we don’t know it’s actually what’s going on there,” the Texas congressman said. Dr. Paul said the worst is yet to come because secession will achieve a greater legitimacy as the country struggles.
“When the dollar collapses and the federal government can’t fulfill any of its promises, what if they send you dollars and they don’t work,” Dr. Paul said. “People are just going to — they’re not going to have a violent cessation. They’re just going to ignore the federal government because they will be inept.”
If you support the right of secession, then they’ve got that right, too...
Apparently you’re not supporting the right to secede from the union, it would appear...
wow, hope you’re way off base.
I know a number of black acquaintances who are VERY conservative.
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As the Democrat party continues to use the federal government as a mechanism to steamroll the Constitution and the Rights of the People, I honestly believe secession will become an option.
Were the people regarded in this transaction as forming one nation, the will of the majority of the whole people of the United States, would bind the minority; in the same manner as the majority in each State must bind the minority; and the will of the majority must be determined either by a comparison of the individual votes; or by considering the will of a majority of the States, as evidence of the will of a majority of the people of the United States. Neither of these rules has been adopted. Each State in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act. In this relation then the new Constitution will, if established, be a federal and not a national Constitution.
Federalist, no. 39, James Madison, 16 Jan. 1788
LOL! Great post.
Despite the notion the War decided the issue of secession, the Constitution was never altered to reflect it. There are other clauses to restrict the beast.
Thus, the original intent of the voluntary compact remains intact.
I did not write this but I can tell you I would vote for GWB again in a heart beat...After what his Muslim has done in just 100 days I am not looking foeward to four years..And besides we Texans will run our country the president is in name only..We are still allowed our right to bear arms and we will be able to take care of any problems that come our way..And if this ever did happen 9us leaving the union) then we would have thousands of other great Americans jion us and live here along side of us..
So, would that mean that you’re supporting the Republic of Lakotah, in their secession from the United States?
[ post #28... ]
“Because I heard people say, well, ‘this was treason,’ they say, and ‘this was un-American.’ But don’t they remember how we came in to our being? We used secession. We seceded from England. So it’s a very good principle. It’s a principle of a free society. It’s a shame we don’t have it anymore.”
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Yes we did become Americans by first becoming treasonous Brits. Anyone who thinks and speaks seriously about secession is a cowardly, unpatriotic sack of crap.
“We lost an election....wahhhhhhh!!!!!”, “I’m having a hard time convincing people that my point of view is the best.....wahhhhh!!!!!” Cowboy the F*$# Up and quit your whining.
If anyone thinks that what is happening now is in anyway comparable to tyrranical rule of the Nazi facist regime or Soviet domination of Eastern Europe spits on those who actually suffered through those periods in world history.
Organize, become active and use the Democratic system that was bestowed upon us by God to make changes that have to be made. You seem to forget how blessed we are compared to all of those who don’t have the political resources that have been awarded to us as a gift from God and those who have been willing to shed blood for this Nation.
Yeah, I’m sure Ronal Reagan would be talking about secession right now. Get a grip!
Ok, I can play this game too.
If you’re against the right of secession, then you’re this too:
“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness”
Now you explain why this was good for us once but now its wrong. Especially when were reserved the right to do it all over again as the above so clearly points out.
As for the Lakota, I never knew there was an American state called “Lakota”
It’s by treaty, they were a sovereign nation and they never gave up the right to secede....
Congress even recognizes the issue by trying to get the Lakotah to “settle” the issue by giving them hundreds of millions of dollars of compensation. They’ve refused the compensation and demand their sovereign nation back which is guaranteed by their treaty (with the U.S.) one sovereign nation to another sovereign nation...
They’ve got a *stronger case* for secession than anyone I’ve ever seen before...
Well, that would depend. From #28
Political activist Russell Means, a founder of the American Indian Movement, says he and other members of Lakota tribes have renounced treaties and are withdrawing from the United States.
This 'political activist' and these 'members of Lakota tribes', were they elected by the People of the tribes to construct a Declaration of Separation, are are they just a bunch of blowhards with their panties in a twist?
They certainly have the right to try. As do we...
What your posts boil down to is a threat, “secede” and “we will bury you”. Or something along those lines. Funny thing about threats, you gotta be able to back em up in reality. Because when the other side calls your bluff, all you have left is an empty threat that you have to fulfill, if you can.
heh...
We are working up to calling the fed gov’s bluff...
I just read the entire Constitution again (for real), and I don't find any post-war amendments that say the states cannot secede. I also don't find any pre-war amendments or original text on that topic. In the absence of other text, the Tenth Amendment rules, and the states can still secede constitutionally. The federal government can in theory invade and conquer states that have seceded, and it could force them to submit to rule by the federal government against the will of their people, just as the federal government could in theory invade and conquer Mexico or Canada and force them to submit. That's not how the United States is supposed to operate, but the right to secede could only be overridden by military conquest.
I hope that a realistic discussion of secession will convince the neosocialists in power to scale back their destruction of the free market, their infringements on our rights, and their irresponsible spending. I hope that voluntary secession by one or more states, if continued federal abuses led to such a step, would be permitted without the federal government initiating violence against its neighbors. I hope that actual secession would lead to a federal return to constitutional government and the subsequent reunification of these United States. Those are all just hopes; the actual decisions are legally in the hands of the people and the leaders of the 50 (57?) individual states, unless Obama decides to use the United States Army to override the will of the people in one or more states.
You said — This ‘political activist’ and these ‘members of Lakota tribes’, were they elected by the People of the tribes to construct a Declaration of Separation, are are they just a bunch of blowhards with their panties in a twist?
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I think that it could be questioned how many “blowhards” are in the “secession” issue here, too... LOL...
AND..., how many “elected officials” are behind it... :-)
Let me repeat myself since you’re obviously not getting it.
I DONT CARE ABOUT THE SIOUX!
Now you answer MY question & stop ducking it.
You said — We are working up to calling the fed gov’s bluff...
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One sure-fire way to do that, for the issue of secession, is to fully support the right of the Lakotah to secede from the United States, because they’ve got the best case for that issue, as they were a sovereign nation, have a treaty and it guarantees them the right to do so — and — Congress even tried to “buy them off” to give up the right to secede, but the Lakotah refused the money to reject their right to secede from the U.S.
It’s the “right to secede from the United States” that we’re talking about. And the Lakotah have the most advanced progress on this issue of anyone.
Congress even recognizes it by offering them “compensation” to give up that right...
So, they are the ones in the “forefront” of the “secession” issue...
The power of the judicial branch to 'interpret' the Constitution is only the power to judge the other 2 branches of government while remaining within the confines of the Constitution itself.
However true, therefore, it may be, that the judicial department is, in all questions submitted to it by the forms of the Constitution, to decide in the last resort, this resort must necessarily be deemed the last in relation to the authorities of the other departments of the government; not in relation to the rights of the parties to the constitutional compact, from which the judicial, as well as the other departments, hold their delegated trusts. On any other hypothesis, the delegation of judicial power would annul the authority delegating it; and the concurrence of this department with the others in usurped powers, might subvert forever, and beyond the possible reach of any rightful remedy, the very Constitution which all were instituted to preserve.
James Madison, Report on the Virginia Resolutions
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As much as you and I might wish government is a self-correcting mechanism, history says it is not.
Then I guess you will support the Republic of Lakotah in seceding from the U.S.?
[post #28...]
Because then they can establish it on their own terms and the current federal government becomes meaningless. The principle of secession is important because it forces the federal government to stay within it’s delegated powers or else lose it’s member states.
If they’re a nation, then how do they secede from us?
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