Stalin's army of rapists: The brutal war crime that Russia and Germany tried to ignore.

Daily Mail (UK) ^ | 24th October 2008 | Andrew Roberts

[PotatoHeadMick]

Relations between Russia and Germany have not been good since Vladimir Putin's nationalist sabre-rattling this summer, but they are about to get a whole lot worse.

A new film about to be released in Germany will force both countries to re-examine part of their recent history that each would much prefer to forget. Yet it is right that the ghastly truth should finally be acknowledged.

The movie, A Woman In Berlin, is based on the diary of the German journalist Marta Hillers and depicts the horror of the Red Army's capture of the capital of the Third Reich in April and May 1945.

Marta was one of two million German women who were raped by soldiers of the Red Army - in her case, as in so many others, several times over.

It was a feature of Russia's 'liberation' and occupation of eastern Germany at the end of World War II that is familiar enough to historians, but which neither country cares to acknowledge took place on anything like the scale it did.

[Ilya Mourometz]

What I’ve read merely says that Butler ordered that women insulting Union troops be arrested as prostitutes. There’s no evidence I’ve seen that his troops went on a raping spree like the Russians typically did. There may be rumours to that effect in the South, but it’s not something that’s documented.

[BroJoeK]

"“It was a very small price Germany paid, for having started the most brutal war in history, to that time.”

I stopped reading after this line. Since when did Germany start WWI? It most definitely was not a small price Germany paid."

Please check out my post #57 above on Fromkin and Tuchman.

I argue, based on their work, that the German government is solely and uniquely responsible for starting the First World War. And I say: the data is there to prove it, for anyone who really wants to look.

Here is a key point to remember: Austria declared war on Serbia, then Germany declared war on Russia, Belgium and France. NONE of those countries EVER declared war on Germany, nor did they invade Germany, nor did they do anything except respond to the belligerent acts of Austria and Germany.

Finally, Fromkin argues and I agree, that Austria was NOT an independent "loose cannon," declaring war on it's own, heedless of dire consequences. In fact, says Fromkin, Austria was acting at the direction of the German government, and that German government was fully aware of the necessary consequences to it's actions.

Bottom line: Germany thought it could WIN the war in 1914, and that's why it went to war in that particular year.

[BroJoeK]

"Since when did Germany start WWI? It most definitely was not a small price Germany paid."

You have only to compare the peace terms that Germany itself imposed on Russia at Brest-Litovsk in 1918, to see that the Versailles terms imposed on Germany in 1919 were more than generous and fair!

Or, you can compare the terms imposed on Germany with those imposed on Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire, to see that Germany suffered the least dire consequence of losing the First World War.

[PotatoHeadMick]

One of the great myths of the Twentieth Century is that Germany was not responsible for starting the First World War and consequently as a result of the punitive nature of the Treaty that ended that war was not responsible for starting the Second World War. Both theories are baloney, Germany must bear about 90% of the responsibility for starting the First World War and 100% of the blame for starting the Second.

If punitive peace was the reason for the Germans starting the Second World War then they should have started World War Three sometime around 1960 given the way their nation was treated after 1945. They didn’t and the reason they didn’t is because they knew who was really to blame for the whole God damned mess in the first place; themselves.

If you’re not convinced by reading Tuchman’s magisterial history of the start of WWI try reading the works of Professor Fritz Fischer, a German, indeed a Nazi himself in his youth, who conclusively proved German guilt in starting the First World War.

[BroJoeK]

"If you’re not convinced by reading Tuchman’s magisterial history of the start of WWI try reading the works of Professor Fritz Fischer, a German, indeed a Nazi himself in his youth, who conclusively proved German guilt in starting the First World War."

Wikipedia on Fritz Fisher's 1961 book "Germany's Aims in the First World War"

Germany's Aims in the First World War

Fromkin's book is copyright 2004. He references Fisher's work seven times, the first on page 9, where he says:

"In the 1940s and 1950s scholars tended to believe that they had learned all that there was to be known about the origins of the war, and that all that remained to be disputed was interpretation of the evidence.

"Beginning in the 1960s, however, sparked by the research of the great German historian Fritz Fischer -- of whose views more will be said later -- new information has come to light, notably from German, Austrian, and Serbian sources, and hardly a year goes by now without the appearance of new monographs adding considerably to our knowledge.

Fisher inspired scholars to comb the archives for what was hidden. What follows in this book is an attempt to look at the old questions in the light of the new knowledge, to summarize the data, and then to draw some conclusions from it..."

[BroJoeK]

"If you’re not convinced by reading Tuchman’s magisterial history of the start of WWI.. "

It's important to note that Tuchman spends only ONE PAGE summarizing the critical events of June and July 1914. Her short shrift of these events has allowed some to claim she supported the idea of German innocence.

These are precisely the events, when revealed by Fromkin & others, which make clearer what was going on behind the scenes in Germany.

And I would not call Tuchman's work "magisterial," I'd call it "popular history," meaning when an ordinary "Joe the history buff" like me reads it, I can understand nearly all of what she's saying! ;-)

[KampfgruppeZ]

Sorry but all you're doing here is spouting false German propaganda, the kind of stuff Germans used to convince themselves that THEY were the aggrieved party in 1914

HA!

Sorry but all you're doing here is spouting false Allies propaganda, the kind of stuff self righteous Allies have continuously used to convince themselves that THEY continue to be the righteous victors since 1918.

and who cares about your OPRA moment book review. I can also line up my own list of books you.

The real truth of the matter is more complex, and the German high command more devious than previously realized.

The truth is never complex, LIES are

Always the easy attack, Blame THOSE DIRTY devious Germans!

[KampfgruppeZ]

No it’s not, a nation is perfectly free to mobilize its forces as and when it sees fit, it is not an act of war. If Russia felt (correctly as it turned out) there was going to be an imminent war then they were perfectly entitled to mobilize, it is not in and of itself a hostile act, it is a preparatory act and is not “against” anyone.

Mobilization in World War I in 1914, under the laws and customs of warfare then observed (not to mention the desire to avoid compromising national security), general mobilization of one nation's military forces was invariably considered an act of war by that country's likely enemies. As the proverb claims, no army has ever mobilized without going to war.

When Russia mobilized and moved her troops to the Russian-German boarder, while Germany had not mobilized, given the a crisis of that day, that was not an act of war???? What plant do you come from???

Never mind I just re-read your handle, "PotatoHeadMick." Nuff said!

[PotatoHeadMick]

The Germans started World War One, they didn’t like the result so they tried again in 1939, the result was the same so they finally gave up trying.

We now have peace and German aggression is limited to little Kaisers ranting on the internet, still the same nasty Germanic aggression but a lot less dangerous for the rest of us.

[KampfgruppeZ]

We now have peace

OH, I see PAX PotatoHeadMick! UK, land of muzzies, Saira law, other assorted nut cases and very few Saxons. No thanks, I prefer to live amoung my own kind.

[PotatoHeadMick]

I don’t live in the UK, clown.

[BroJoeK]

"Sorry but all you're doing here is spouting false Allies propaganda, the kind of stuff self righteous Allies have continuously used to convince themselves that THEY continue to be the righteous victors since 1918.

and who cares about your OPRA moment book review. I can also line up my own list of books you."

We have here introduced you to three books by serious historians, not allied propagandists:

1961 former Nazi Fritz Fisher: "Germany's Aims in the First World War."

1963 American Barbara Tuchman: "The Guns of August"

2004 Boston University professor David Fromkin: "Europe's Last Summer."

All clearly show that the Great War was premeditated by Germany, who initiated declarations of war and aggressive invasions -- i.e., the Schlieffen Plan.

[BroJoeK]

"Mobilization in World War I in 1914, under the laws and customs of warfare then observed (not to mention the desire to avoid compromising national security), general mobilization of one nation's military forces was invariably considered an act of war by that country's likely enemies. As the proverb claims, no army has ever mobilized without going to war."

The facts clearly show that Germany first pushed Austria into declaring war on Serbia.
When Serbia's ally Russia then began a PARTIAL MOBILIZATION against AUSTRIA, (not Germany), Germany issued an ultimatum that Russia must demobilize and NOT defend their ally Serbia.
When the Russians refused, Germany, completely unprovoked, declared war on Russia, THEN INVADED NEUTRAL BELGIUM!

There is simply no logical explanation for Germany's behavior EXCEPT that Germany WANTED WAR in 1914. And the reason why is absolutely clear as well: German leaders believed they could WIN a war in 1914, but not if they waited too much longer.

[PoliticsAndSausages]

I’m far from arguing that Germany is blameless of WW1. But you have to admit that the war started because of some damned thing in the Balkans, like Bismarck predicted. And the Russians had no right to side with Serbia, which at that time belonged to the Austro-Hungarian Empire. War could have been avoided, but Russia decided to support Serbia in clear violation of Ausro Hungarian territory. Nowadays we play that like it’s not a big thing, like we play it down if Russia snatches territory from Georgia.

[PoliticsAndSausages]

And yes, the German military wanted war, due to their mobilisation advantages. Meanwhile, France and Russia were of course cute little lambs, and it is just a mere coincidence that the precedent comes from Russia siding with Serbia.

[BroJoeK]

"And the Russians had no right to side with Serbia, which at that time belonged to the Austro-Hungarian Empire. War could have been avoided, but Russia decided to support Serbia in clear violation of Ausro Hungarian territory."

Oh, dear me, what am I going to do about you? You obviously know nothing, zero, zip, nada about this history. So what's to discuss?

Please read a book. Learn something, then think about it before you start yapping ridiculous nonsense!

In 1914, Serbia was an independent country formally allied with Russia, and feared and hated by the much larger Austria-Hungarian Empire.

The First World War was triggered by the assassination of the Austrian Archduke Ferdinand in June 1914. But the sequence of events was quite complicated, and much of it had remained hidden from the the public.

It's the previously hidden parts which show that behind the actions of Austria in declaring war on Serbia were the directions Austria received from the German government.

Here's the bottom line: in 1914 the German government believed it was finally ready for war, but that it must not wait much longer. Therefore it used the EXCUSE of the archduke's assassination to drum up an international crisis, through which Germany DECLARED WAR on RUSSIA, BELGIUM and FRANCE -- NONE of which EVER declared war on Germany.

[BroJoeK]

"Always the easy attack, Blame THOSE DIRTY devious Germans!"

In fact, most Germans were as caught by surprise as nearly everyone else in Europe, in that summer of 1914. None of the publics of any country then expected war.

There were only a small handful of Germans who knew what was really going on, and they included the Kaiser, his military chief Moltke, and his Chancellor Bethmann Hollweg. Moltke is quoted in 1915 as saying that it was he who "prepared and initiated" the war.

[KampfgruppeZ]

I don’t live in the UK, clown.

Sorry, I must have you confused with, ReallySTUPIDPotatoHeadMick.

An' that's Herr Spaßmacher to YOU!

[PotatoHeadMick]

Jesus, you really are a clown, aren’t you? Clown.

[KampfgruppeZ]

Jesus, you really are a clown, aren’t you? Clown.

Und du bist ein betrunkenes Schwein, KartoffelKopfMick. And keep Jesus out of this, I'm sure YOU embarrass him!