Stalin's army of rapists: The brutal war crime that Russia and Germany tried to ignore.

Daily Mail (UK) ^ | 24th October 2008 | Andrew Roberts

[PotatoHeadMick]

Relations between Russia and Germany have not been good since Vladimir Putin's nationalist sabre-rattling this summer, but they are about to get a whole lot worse.

A new film about to be released in Germany will force both countries to re-examine part of their recent history that each would much prefer to forget. Yet it is right that the ghastly truth should finally be acknowledged.

The movie, A Woman In Berlin, is based on the diary of the German journalist Marta Hillers and depicts the horror of the Red Army's capture of the capital of the Third Reich in April and May 1945.

Marta was one of two million German women who were raped by soldiers of the Red Army - in her case, as in so many others, several times over.

It was a feature of Russia's 'liberation' and occupation of eastern Germany at the end of World War II that is familiar enough to historians, but which neither country cares to acknowledge took place on anything like the scale it did.

[dfwgator]

Downfall is in the top ten of all time great movies, period.

It certainly set a record for most YouTube parodies.

[j-damn]

I have a BA in history, imbecile, so pray tell—when do you consider that the Second World War “officially” began? When the Germans remilitarized the Rhineland? When the Spanish Civil War began? When the Japanese invaded China? When the ink dried on the Versailles treaty? When the Kaiser’s Army got “stabbed in the back”? Brest-Litovsk? When the Bolshies stormed the Winter Palace? Shall we continue, or have you had enough?

Maybe you want to argue that it wasn’t really a “world war” until after Barbarossa or Pearl Harbor? I guess you don’t consider the British Empire to be large enough in 1939? That moronic logic means that “World War I” wasn’t really a “world war” until we joined in ‘17.

Myself, I consider the Great War and The Second World War to be the another 30 years war. But of course, there was a tricky cessation of hostilities between 11/11/18 to 9/3/39.

The bottom line is, if you think that millions upon millions of Europeans would have died without the Third Reich invading someone—not just “diplomatically” absorbing states, you’re the victim, probably of reduced oxygen flow during birth.

You’re one of those dopes who thinks that 1.99999 recurring *actually* equals 2, aren’t you?

[BroJoeK]

"The problem with your analysis is that you blame the national socialists for the folks murdered by the international socialists."

In 1939, Hitler invaded Poland, 5.6 million Poles died (3 million Jews).
In early 1940, Hitler invaded Denmark & Norway, 25,000 Danes & Norwegians died.
In spring 1940, Hitler invaded the low countries & France. Nearly a million died in those countries (200,000 Jews).
In summer 1940, Hitler began bombing Britain, killing around 60,000 all told.
In spring 1941, Hitler invaded Yugoslavia and Greece, where 1.4 million died.
In summer 1941, Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, in his words, a "war of destruction," where 23 million died (1 million of them were Jews).
In the Baltic countries, 600,000 died, 1/3 of them Jews.
During the war, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Romania were sucked in, killing 1.8 million, half of them Jews.

I see no way that Nazi Germany was not responsible for those deaths. And by comparison, Germany suffered relatively little.

[KampfgruppeZ]

1939, Hitler invaded Poland, 5.6 million Poles died

You have it only partially right.

More correct is, In 1939, Hitler return to historical German territory, illegally taken by Versailles communists and New York bankers and given to a defunct country once called Poland! In conjunction, Stalin aided Hitler, by attacking from the east, dividing and once again eliminating this so-called country, Poland . Thereby positioning Stalin's planned future domination of western Europe.

And don't forget: Katyn Forest, a wooded area near Gneizdovo village, a short distance from Smolensk in Russia where, in 1940 on Stalin's orders, the NKVD shot and buried over 4000 Polish service personnel that had been taken prisoner when the Soviet Union invaded Poland in September 1939 in WW2 in support of the Nazis.

I see no way that Nazi Germany was not responsible for those deaths. And by comparison, Germany suffered relatively little.

And who is responsibly for the million Germans who died of starvation after WWI ended and the Allies kept up their Navel blockade of German ports?

[PAR35]

In 1939, Hitler invaded Poland, 5.6 million Poles died (3 million Jews).

Or, you could as accurately say, 'In 1939, Stalin invaded Poland, 5.6 million Poles died (3 million Jews).

You might look up sometime how many Poles died at the hands of the international socialists and how many died at the hands of the national socialists.

It's politically correct to put all of the blame on Hitler, but there was more blood on Stalin's hands than on Hitlers, and there would have been a lot of lives saved if France had stood up to Hitler at the Rhineland, or Czechoslovakia, or Poland (and yes, I'm aware of the French invasion of Germany followed quickly by a retreat in the face of NO opposition).

[WilliamReading]

It’s called rough justice. I can’t shed many tears for the Germans on this one, sorry.

[PAR35]

I should link your post to this thread http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2113361/posts as a perfect example.

Thanks for the laugh. Now go and ask for a refund from your professor.

[BroJoeK]

"Or, you could as accurately say, 'In 1939, Stalin invaded Poland, 5.6 million Poles died (3 million Jews)."

Are you even sane? Do you know ANYTHING about history?

In 1938 Stalin offered to ally with Britain, France & Czechoslovakia against Hitler, but when Chamberlain wimped out, Stalin took note.

So in 1939, when both Britain & Hitler came courting Stalin, and Hitler offered him the better deal (part of Poland, the Baltic countries, Finland), Stalin threw over the unreliable Brits and took up with Hitler.

The point is, Hitler was the main actor here -- everyone else was dancing to his fiddle. Hitler initiated the pact which Stalin accepted.

I'll say again, there's no way Nazi Germany is not responsible for all of the deaths which resulted from their invasions of Europe -- i.e., 5.6 million Poles, including 3 million Jews cannot be blamed on Stalin!

[BroJoeK]

"More correct is, In 1939, Hitler return to historical German territory, illegally taken by Versailles communists and New York bankers and given to a defunct country once called Poland! In conjunction, Stalin aided Hitler, by attacking from the east, dividing and once again eliminating this so-called country, Poland . Thereby positioning Stalin's planned future domination of western Europe."

Such nonsense!

In 1918 Germany surrendered, and in 1919 accepted the Versailles peace terms. Those terms, by the way, went easier on Germany than on any of her allies.

Just consider: the Austria-Hungarian Empire was destroyed, and the Ottoman Empire stripped of everything outside Turkey. Germany, by contrast kept nearly all of its previous population & territory. It was a very small price Germany paid, for having started the most brutal war in history, to that time.

In breaking those Versailles peace terms, Hitler effectively revoked Germany's 1918 surrender, and reinstated the Great War.

The western allies at first couldn't bring themselves to really believe it. They tried to make nice with Hitler. But every time they made nice, Hitler just increased his demands.

Finally, they drew the line at Poland, and when Hitler crossed their line, he brought the just wrath of the world down on Germany.

But the bottom line is still this: Germany suffered far less than the punishment she dished out on her neighbors, not even to mention the Jews.

[BroJoeK]

"And who is responsibly for the million Germans who died of starvation after WWI ended and the Allies kept up their Navel blockade of German ports?"

In 1918 Germany surrendered to avoid an invasion and the complete destruction of Germany. The allies then maintained their naval blockade, pending Germany's approval of the Versailles peace terms.

The western allies never prevented the Germans from growing their own food, or from buying food from other agricultural countries within Europe.

[PAR35]

Glad to see Uncle Joe has one defender on FR.

[BroJoeK]

"Glad to see Uncle Joe has one defender on FR."

Don't be ridiculous. Stalin is totally, totally responsible for the tens of millions he murdered. But Stalin is not responsible for the millions murdered by Hitler's war.

[KampfgruppeZ]

It was a very small price Germany paid, for having started the most brutal war in history, to that time.

Again you show your lack of historical understanding

Just look at a historical time line of the days leading up to WWI.

You'll find that, "France urged Russia to mobilize for fear of an immediate German attack. After the bombardment of Belgrade on July 30, the Czar was persuaded by his ministers and Chief of staff to order full mobilization." Further more, "Germany feared that she would face attacks from both Russia and France. Germany demanded Russia to stop her mobilization at once. Russia refused. Germany at once declared war on Russia on August 1."

Did you get that!

1) Russia fully mobilized on July 30.

Mobilization by one country against another is an act of war.

Mobilization by Russia at France's urging against Germany is an act of war.

2) Germany demanded Russia to stop her mobilization, which says Germany was not looking to go to war, as no declaration of war against Russia or ANY country had been made by Germany. What's more, there you have the FROGS urging the Czar "get it on.", While the French were too chicken shit to declare war without a heavyweight to help them.

In fact WWI can be blamed on a crazy Muslim who, on June 28, 1914 assassinated the Archduke Francis Ferdinand,heir to the throne of Austria-Hungary, and his wife. at Sarajevo, Bosnia. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- July 23, 1914 An ultimatum was sent to Serbia by Austria-Hungary. It said that if their demands were not met that they would end negotiations which would lead to war. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- July 30, 1914 Russian government began to mobilize their army moving them to the Russian-Austrian border -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- August 1, 1914 Germany takes mobilization of Russian troops as act of war and declares war on Russia. Russia asks France, it's ally, for help. France prepares for war. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- August 2, 1914 Because of France entering the war Germany tries to find a easy way out through Belgium which was a neutral country.

So there you have it, the revenge crazed (against Germany) French, stupid Russians and a wacko muslim driving events. Events and decisions made by the victorious allies that we are living with today. Who do you think set the boarders of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Saudi Arabia etc. Today, these same countries, Russia, France, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia are: a)our happy friends making a better world or b)The world leading trouble makers?

Get the facts correct, then MAYBE you will be able to argue a point intelligently.

[j-damn]

Aww, I see someone whined to the teacher about #53

Nazi sympathizers seem to have friends in high places.

[PotatoHeadMick]

“Mobilization by one country against another is an act of war”

No it’s not, a nation is perfectly free to mobilise its forces as and when it sees fit, it is not an act of war. If Russia felt (correctly as it turned out) there was going to be an imminent war then they were perfectly entitled to mobilise, it is not in and of itself a hostile act, it is a preparatory act and is not “against” anyone.

The fact remains, and you can bluster about it all you like and try to rewrite facts all you want, that Imperial Germany was a warlike nation, in the previous half century she had started several wars and invaded many of her neighbours and it was Imperial Germany which started the First World War in continuation of her previous aggressive policies.

The Treaty of Versailles was a very fair treaty in comparison with the treaties which victorious Germany inflicted on her previous victims, including France in 1870 and Russia in 1917, you only have to look at the Treaty of Brest Litovsk to see how a victorious Germany would have treated the Allied nations had she won or witness the horrors of Belgium to see how Germany treated defeated nations. Germany was beaten fair and square and the Treaty of Versailles was a fair punishment for her aggression.

The Germans couldn’t accept they had been beaten in 1918 so in 1939 they started a rematch and once more they got their asses handed to them on a plate.

Finally after 1945 Germany got the message and stopped invading her neighbours’ territory and Germany today is a peaceful civilised nation but my goodness what a price the rest of the world had to pay for Germany to learn some manners!

[BroJoeK]

"So there you have it, the revenge crazed (against Germany) French, stupid Russians and a wacko muslim driving events...."

"...Get the facts correct, then MAYBE you will be able to argue a point intelligently."

Sorry but all you're doing here is spouting false German propaganda, the kind of stuff Germans used to convince themselves that THEY were the aggrieved party in 1914, and therefore rightly deserved another go at it in 1939.

The real truth of the matter is more complex, and the German high command more devious than previously realized.

So, I have often before recommended here my reference book on this:

David Fromkin, "Europe's Last Summer"

This book is full of facts that simply were not known, say, 45 years ago, when Barbara Tuchman wrote:

Barbara Tuchman "The Guns of August"

So, I highly recommend Fromkin's book to you. It will open your eyes, and may even change your mind.

By the way, I just recently went back are re-read Tuchman's book, to see if she seriously disagreed with Fromkin. The answer is: no she doesn't! Much of what Fromkin focuses on, Tuchman doesn't even mention. But where they do overlap, Tuchman and Fromkin agree precisely!

[BroJoeK]

"Finally after 1945 Germany got the message and stopped invading her neighbours’ territory and Germany today is a peaceful civilised nation but my goodness what a price the rest of the world had to pay for Germany to learn some manners!"

Excellent, very well said!

[Constantine XI Palaeologus]

Not consistently Eastern. After all, Beast Butler certainly didn’t qualify for that status.

[Constantine XI Palaeologus]

“It was a very small price Germany paid, for having started the most brutal war in history, to that time.”

I stopped reading after this line. Since when did Germany start WWI? It most definitely was not a small price Germany paid.

French revanchism played a major part in the rise of Hitler/national socialism, and by extension WWII.

The invasion of Poland resulted in the Phony War, hardly “the wrath of the world.” ‘Sides, the Allies had no problem selling out the Poles to the Reds.