Ancient Tablet Ignites Debate on Christianity (feed your faith not your doubts)

NY Times ^ | 5 July 2008 | Ethan Bronner

[theoldmarine]

Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection By ETHAN BRONNER JERUSALEM — A three-foot-tall tablet with 87 lines of Hebrew that scholars believe dates from the decades just before the birth of Jesus is causing a quiet stir in biblical and archaeological circles, especially because it may speak of a messiah who will rise from the dead after three days. If such a messianic description really is there, it will contribute to a developing re-evaluation of both popular and scholarly views of Jesus...“This is the sign of the son of Joseph. This is the conscious view of Jesus himself. This gives the Last Supper an absolutely different meaning. To shed blood is not for the sins of people but to bring redemption to Israel.”

[mkjessup]

"That original error on the part of Israel is what will cause them to accept an imposter, a fake, a phony claiming to be God Incarnate, and Jesus spoke of this when he said "I come in my Father's Name, and you receiveth Me not, but another shall come in his own name, and him you shall receive."
And many "Christians" too.

I agree with you. The Jews do not have a monopoly on being deceived, far from it.

I believe that Christ was referring specifically to the yet to come latter day counterfeit of Christ, commonly referred to as the Antichrist, aka 'The Beast' of Revelation 13.
Absolutely he was.
"I believe that many of us will live long enough to see the literal Second Coming of Christ, and I am expecting to see it myself."
I don't think so, because so much has yet to happen. I believe we are well into the "great revolt" part of Prophecy however. (But then again things are happening fast) A brand new (and final) Persian empire has yet to rise,and a rebel which deceives so many comes from that. Europe has to fall, the Church becomes the rebels throne, etc. etc. Then horrible suffering from famine, persecution.

You might consider Daniel 5:28:

"PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians."

Of course it might just be sheer coincidence that Shimon Peres is the 9th and current President of Israel (and his 7 year term does not end until 2014). ;)

I don't think I would want to be in this earthly body during those end times anyways. I'll watch from the new world in the new heaven.

A wise choice.

[sevenbak]

I disagree. All truth has and will have at least 2 witnesses, sometimes 3. I don't see what the big deal is with this stone. It testifies of the truth, and verifies his word.

Deut. 17: 6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

Matthew 18:16 In the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corin. 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

[Boagenes]

Dude is a "generic" term and as such "gender neutral" at least to anyone west of the rockies.

And that is the most crank, messed up explanation I have ever read. If Paul is not an apostle, then you can just throw out half the New Testament. And if you throw out half the New Testament, then you can throw out the notion of divinely inspired scripture and the Holy Spirit, too. And if you throw out divinely inspired scripture and the Holy Spirit, you can just throw out Jesus along with it all.

What you believe is a heresy, a sort of "reverse Marcion". Marcion thought only Paul was divinely inspired and constructed his own Bible with only a severely edited version of the Gospel of Luke, and Paul's letters. He was branded a heretic, and rightly so. Your crank theory is just as heretical (in addition to making for a good belly laugh or two).

[Boagenes]

Uh...no it’s not.

[Boagenes]

Yeah, and I think his name might begin with an “O” and end with “ama”...

[USCG SimTech]

Do you know what its like to be filled with the Holy Spirit? Can you really be sure it is "crap"?

Actually, the filling with the Holy Spirit is the reason the Universe was created. Infinite God became true to that definition of God-Self (Infinite) by becoming finite an unlimited number of ways and times in a Union state. Of course, this will take forever to complete. Yes it's true, this was all created by God, for God. Try that on for your ego (parasitic consciousness that we all value so highly)

Guess what... your ten dimensional recording birth to death is locked in the cells of time/space forever and is you after you end your recording (death)

It is the recording of the Presence Union that can break you out of that static recording. (I don't care how great your life has been, reviewing it for the ten billionth time unable to change anything will get really old...a true hell.)

[Nevadan]

bahblahbah writes:

This is not entirely surprising in view of Isaiah 53 in any case. But the real implication of this for Jesus’ studies should not be missed. Most radical Jesus scholars have argued that the passion and resurrection predictions by Jesus found in the Gospels were not actually made by Jesus— they reflect the later notions and theologizing of the Evangelists.

But now, if this stone is genuine there is no reason to argue this way.

nevadan writes:

I agree with your view. This in no way threatens historical, orthodox Christianity, but it does punch a hole in liberal Biblical scholars’ (such as the “Jesus Seminar”) thesis that many of the metaphors and stories about Jesus in the New Testament were inserted by the early church at a much later time.

This stone, if authentic, simply verifys that the idea of a suffering Messiah did exist at the time of Jesus. It stands to reason that there were some devout Jewish scholars who read Isaiah 53 and saw its implications. It may not have been the popular view of the Messiah at the time, but it should be no surprise that there were some who “got it”.

[mkjessup]

Yeah, and I think his name might begin with an “O” and end with “ama”...

Really? I wonder who it could "B"? ;)

Seriously? I doubt very much that Obama-lama-ding-dong is the Beast of Revelation 13.

Lots of people like to play that 'Guess That Beast!' game and I'm no exception, it is a fascinating mental exercise but I'm not convinced that we as Christians will know the true identity of the Antichrist until long after we are gone (and that also depends on whether one believes in a pre, mid, or post-Tribulation 'Rapture', personally I can't stand that term because it isn't a word that actually appears in Scripture although there are many translations from ancient texts that appear to produce that word), but whatever you want to call it, I believe that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 means exactly what it says: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Now if you want to bounce around some potential candidates for being the Antichrist, there is always General Weaseley Clark (yes I'm serious), based on three factors:

1.) Enormous ego (prerequisite for Beast, lol)

2.) Jewish heritage. (yes, Clark is Jewish, in fact Clark comes from the priest caste of 'Kohen')

3.) Speaks fluent Russian. (enables him to 'reach out' and communicate directly with the Russian people.

Then there is French President Nicholas Sarkozy:

1.) Charming and personable, ladies man.

2.) He too, is Jewish (*ding ding*!!)

3.) He is staking out a position that is extremely pro-Israel, and he's talking smack about Iran's nuclear intentions, even to the point of suggesting that military action might be necessary to deal with Ahmadinnerjacket.

Bonus qualifier for Sarko: He is about to take on the rotating Presidency of the EU in addition to his position as President of France. That to me is a little too coincidental.

Anyway, food for thought! LOL

[Boagenes]

Nah, now they'll simply pretend they never made those arguments and instead argue it the other way, that Jesus only made those predictions because he had heard them, and they were in vogue and a common Messianic notion that was circulating in the Jewish population in his time.

They always find another angle.

[Boagenes]

Yeah, but Sarko's wife is a hottie, so that can't make him the Beast.

And I was only half joking about the Obamessiah.

[mkjessup]

Well YOU’RE no fun! LOL

j/k

[maine-iac7]

link with entire article and photo

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?hp

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

Amen!

[Boagenes]

I'm tellin' ya, Jesus 2.0 gives me the frickin' willies. I get a really oily, creepy, sinister vibe off that guy. 2 Thessalonians 2 keeps running over and over through my mind:

2 Thessalonians2:3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed...4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God...

9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

And when you read that, and then see stuff like this:

And stuff like this:

Ya know...can't blame me for raising the ol' eyebrows a tad...

[hellbender]

I agree. If you read a more detailed account of Knohl's interpretation of the stone (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/850657.html), he is saying that the "messiah who would be resurrected after 3 days" was not Jesus, but Simon, and that therefore the early Christians basically plagiarized or recycled an idea which was commonplace at the time. The goal seems to be to undermine the uniqueness of Jesus and his role as propitiator of all men's sins, and make him just another of many pretenders to the title of messiah among the Jews.

The stone is a feeble piece of evidence, of completely undocumented provenance. It does not compare with the manifold ways in which Jesus fulfilled OT prophecy, as documented by sevenbak (post 40).

[Boagenes]

They don't even know that it's translated accurately. They're simply relying on what one guy said. It's apparently not easy to make out, or not legible at all. And as with anything historical or archeological, when related to Christ and when it comes to the left or non-Christians deciding, "when in doubt, always take the most anti-Christian translation/reading/bent/stance/position."

I can't wait until some real Christian scholars get their hands on this tablet and get a good look at it.

[sevenbak]

There are ways to study and decipher the faded text, and it's already been done using NASA technology adapted to the study of ancient documents.

BYU’s Institute for the Study and Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts (ISPART) has been applying multi-spectral imaging (MSI) to ancient documents and artifacts, from 2,000-year-old carbonized scrolls, to damaged religious manuscripts, to Mayan murals, etc.

Here's a good write up on the technology. I hope someone can decipher the rest. They were able to salvage info found in carbonized scrolls found in the ashes of Mt. Vesuvius. Pretty cool stuff. The rock ought to be cake compared to that.

http://www.et.byu.edu/news_imaging.htm

[Boagenes]

Yes, I know they can do that, but it doesn’t sound like that is what was done with this tablet - whether because they just didn’t, or because they couldn’t, who knows. But it sounds like the deciphering was done by one “expert” who essentially just guessed.

[sevenbak]

if it hasn’t been done, it needs to be done, that’s what I’m saying.

It’s definitely possible.