It was ever thus. 
Posted on 04/08/2008 5:33:15 PM PDT by LSUfan
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It was ever thus.
wonderful...
SOCOM is getting them.
There are 2 versions of the SCAR. One (SCAR-L) uses the standard 5.56mm round, while the other (SCAR-H) has an “open architecture” that allows for the possibility of different caliber rounds. The baseline of the SCAR-H is chambered for 7.62mm
So.... Since these are now surplus, where could a guy pick one up?
Nothing wrong with a little black powder properly applied by folks with certain skills......:o)
I read most of the replies so far-generally of the opinion that the 416 is head and shoulders above the M4/M16.
Well, how about some reality?
The only benefit is that of the “propellant gases channeling back into the upper reciever, tending to dry lubricant and gum up the works”
In a dry dusty environment, the prescribed lube level is DRY (hence the dry film lubricant applied to the inner upper surfaces and the bolt carrier) If this coating is compromised, unit armoers are equipped to re-apply it in the field, it works. End of arugument.
I routiinely had to make a point on the proper lub of weapons in dry dusty enviroments-Soldiers from BCT through senior levels have been trained by (poor)example to pump CLP into every opening of the M16 family to make it run-wrong.
The M4/M16 is a fine weapon, is very efective within its design parameters (300m) and is very reliable in its current format.
The dust test required somewhere around 8000 rounds fired w/o maintenance-try that with anything and the performance will suffer(much). The rate of failure of the “worst” weapon, the M4, was somewhere in the range of a larger handful, compared to smaller handfulls of failures of the others.
Statistically stupid. No trooper is ging to run his weapon for 8k rounds sans maintenance, and then wonder why it don’t work.
The BS is the criticsim and the resultant testing protocol.
Why not get a ball park range of combat use/rounds fired per day and then test on that more realistic number-that way, when a bullet launcher fails to launch, it IS statistically significant.
The 556 M855 round is very lethal, only thing is you must actually hit the target-always a problem when the doo doo hits the fan (trust me!)
The 6.8SPC is about as powerfull as the 762x39 or 30/30 win-with a trajectory of a rainbow past 300m-so we are back to the same result (if it was a super round, the High power community would use it-not a one will touch it as it is a turd in a punchbowl long range performance wise toooslow and too light bullet balisitally speaking).
Up the caliber to 762x51 or so, and you get a weapon with more terminal enegery, but at the expense of additional recoil and load mass.
No free lunches for the dogs of war!
I trusted my life for many years with the M16A1, A2, M4 and M4A1, and they always went bang, accurately.
This test is akin to telling us a Soldier’s uniform smells, and then blaming the manufacturer for the troopers poor hygiene....
God Bless
MOLON LABE
Remember PO2 Monsoor, SEAL, USN CMH
I was in the AF when they were the first to procure the AR15. As it evolved into the M-16 and caused so many problems in the Army, I have always mistrusted the system, even though it demonstrably improved.
Guess I also never quite understood the .223 as a military round. My prejudice was that it was a varmint round ... wouldn't dream of it on deer! Plenty lethal at close range, I never though it could do the job down range, or against a skinned vehicle, for example.
As a kid, I hunted everything in Maine with a 6.5X55 surplus Swedish Mauser, which I still have and still use occasionally with commercial sporting ammo. Just the handiest damn weapon, excellent at long range and extremely accurate, deadly even on a moose! So when the Army announced the 6.8, I thought "Hey that's more like it!"
I have two youngsters ... a niece and a nephew ... in Iraq and Afghanistan. I want them to have the most powerful reliable weapons they can handle ... even if I have to buy them.
I don’t feel undergunned with my M-4gery Homeland Defense Rifle.
The best you can do for your kin in those places is get them Trijicon sights, if they don’t have them.
The M4 suffered more stoppages than the combined number of jams by the three other competitors — the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA’s Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) and the H&K 416.
Follow the money. Polticians, defense contractors, and military officers are lining their pockets. Idiocy like this can always be explained if you just follow the money. I hope somebody with more resources than me - - and somebody who cannot be purchased - - will do so.
My local 100 pound PC hired and promoted minority SWAT killer has everything I’ll need if the flag goes up.
I told her to call me Bawana as she is just carrying my guns till I need em.....:o)
Nite Ya’ll !
I think you're off the mark comparing the ballistics and trajectory of the 6.8Rem to 7.62X39 or 30-30. And no, it's not going to light up the high power world, but no round that packs 25 cartridges into an M-16 magazine ever could do that.
I get flamed when I criticize the 6.8SPC. Awhile back I suggested the 6.8 was the wrong direction and that the correct direction would be to put a heavier bullet in the 223 and then up the chamber pressure and the muzzle velocity by use of faster burning powder and/or more powerful primers. It wouldn’t hurt to make it a boat tail bullet either, since, I’m pretty sure the 223 is not commonly a boat tail type bullet. If brass starts to split or bulge, make it thicker walled, or switch to aluminum casings. Whatever it takes.
Is the problem powder residue sticking to the works when they get hot
or that talc-like dust combining with the powder residue?
I also understand that the M4 action won't cycle when muddy?
And what is the commercial name of the lube you recommend. I like Dry-Slide, but by now there must be something sexier.
The FBI dumped the 10mm because (in part) it was too much abuse for their guys to take for prolonged periods of practice. Also during extended training the round started beating the gun frames to death and there were some disturbing stoppages involving the slides being locked into full battery and refusing to open. Which I would guess is a BAD thing in the middle of a gunfight.
9mm is too weak. 10mm is too strong. 40 is too expensive among other problems. That makes the 45 ACP for a semi auto in the words of the three bears: Just Riiiiiiight
I just finished reading the book Black Hawk Down (I know - I’m about a decade late on that). I was amazed to read about how much our troops hated the 5.56 ammo. There were several instances in that battle where they had to shoot someone 10-15 times to kill them.
Oh, you got to be kidding me! Have you ever even fired a 10mm caliber handgun? The only reason the FBI dumped the 10mm is because the FEMALE cadets sued because they couldn’t pass the test with the 10mm. If I remember correctly, these same female cadets then failed to qualify with a 9mm. So the 10mm had nothing to do with it. I’ve fired the 10mm extensively. My 10mm glock kicks slightly LESS than my kahr PM9 9mm. Anyone that can’t handle a 10mm should be disqualified on the basis of insufficient hand strength to protect themselves in a scuffle.
BTW, the frames getting beat to death were the very first 10mm handguns on the market. The brenten, IIRC. That was a design flaw. Not a caliber flaw. Modern Glock 10mm handguns are very reliable.
The biggest gripe I've ever had with he M-16 were the crappy magazines we had.
The second was during high rates of fire the barrel would smoke thus obscuring your sight picture.
Ditto.
My son carried an M4 on two tours, Liked it, he did say you had to do maintenace, esp the magazines.
He hated the M9, the magazines they issue are utter crap. I scored some commercial mags for him - in the end he carried a AK 47 or Mossberg as a backup. When he wasn’t humping a M249.
The 6.8 SPC is almost the same as the 7.62x39... the issue sems to be “when used in a M16/M4” weaponn...
http://www.ko-tonics.com/68-FAQ.html for a decent rundown.
Yeah, it’s small mass and high velocity gives it crappy stopping power at close range. It’s the same problem with the 9mm. That’s why SOCOM uses the Mk 23 .45ACP pistol instead of the M9 9mm
Also didn’t help that the locals were high on khat.
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