Posted on 04/06/2008 5:27:22 AM PDT by SkyPilot
Local and state officials entered the temple of a secretive polygamist sect late Saturday, said lawmen blockading the road to the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado.
The action comes hours after local prosecutors said officials were preparing for the worst because a group of FLDS members were resisting efforts to search the structure.
The Texas Department of Public Safety trooper and Schleicher County sheriff’s deputy confirmed that officials have entered the temple but said they had no word on whether anything occurred in the effort.
The incursion into the temple caps the three-day saga of the state’s Child Protective Services agency removing at least 183 women and children from the YFZ Ranch since Friday afternoon. Eighteen girls have been placed in state custody since a 16-year-old told authorities she was married to a 50-year-old man and had given birth to his child.
Saturday evening, ambulances were brought in, said Allison Palmer, who as first assistant 51st District attorney, would prosecute any felony crimes uncovered as part of the investigation inside the compound.
“In preparing for entry to the temple, law enforcement is preparing for the worst,” Palmer said Saturday evening. They want to have “medical personnel on hand in case this were to go in a way that no one wants.”
Apparently as a result of action Saturday night at the ranch, about 10:15 p.m. Saturday, a Schleicher County school bus unloaded another group of at least a dozen more women and children from the compound.
Although members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or FLDS, have provided varying degrees of cooperation to the sheriff’s deputies and Texas Rangers searching the compound, all cooperation stopped once authorities tried to search the gleaming white temple that towers over the West Texas scrub, Palmer said.
“There may be those who would oppose (entry) by placing themselves between law enforcement and the place of worship,” Palmer said Saturday afternoon. “If an agreement cannot be reached … law enforcement will have to — as gently and peaceably as possible — make entry into that place.”
Sect members consider the temple, dedicated by then-leader of the sect Warren Jeffs in January 2005 and finished many months later, off-limits to those who are not FLDS members, said Palmer, who prosecutes felony cases in Schleicher County.
Palmer said she didn’t know the size or makeup of the group inside the temple.
The earlier refusal to provide access was even more disconcerting because CPS investigators have yet to identify the 16-year-old girl or her roughly 8-month-old baby among the dozens removed from the compound, Palmer said.
“Anytime someone says, ‘Don’t look here,’” she said, “it makes you concerned that’s exactly where you need to look.”
The girl told authorities in two separate phone calls a day apart that she was married to a 50-year-old man, Dale Barlow, who had fathered her child, Palmer said.
The joint raid included the Texas Rangers, CPS, Schleicher County and Tom Green County sheriff’s deputies and game wardens from the Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife.
Although CPS and Department of Public Safety officials have described the compound’s residents as cooperative, Palmer disagreed.
“Things have been a little tense, a little volatile,” she said.
Authorities removed 52 children Friday afternoon and 131 women and children overnight Friday. About 40 of the children are boys, said CPS spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner.
No further children have been taken into state custody since Friday, when 18 girls were judged to have been abused or be at imminent risk for abuse. CPS has found foster homes for the girls, Meisner said, and will place them after concluding its investigation.
Meisner declined to comment on the fate of the 119 other children and said authorities were still searching the ranch for others Saturday evening.
“They’re in the process of looking,” she said. “They’re literally about halfway through.”
If all our efforts are as filthy rags, then why do Mormons teach that we go through Jesus only AFTER we have done all we can?
By your own admission, Jesus paid it all. Why do Mormons add works?
So I need a fragmented brain?
It gets worse than that. Mormons have also taught salvation comes through Joseph Smith, Smith has been elevated to god.
"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)
. . . no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. . . . Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are . . . I cannot go there without his consent. . . . He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).
I will now give my scripture—"Whosoever confesseth that Joseph Smith was sent of God . . . that spirit is of God; and every spirit that does not confess that God has sent Joseph Smith, and revealed the everlasting Gospel to and through him, is of Anti-christ . . . (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 176 ).
Truer words were never spoken.
As an example, think of the Mormon “Godhead” as a Board of a corporation.
You have the President, the Vice President and the Secretary.
They all have an equal vote, and are equal in power, yet serve different functions within the group. Jesus (Vice President) is the intercessory between those who wish to address the Board (us) and the Board. The President is a figurehead (God the Father)who’s experience is invaluable. The secretary (Holy Ghost) is the one who records and delivers all the “messages.”
God is in actuality the three members of the Board of the Earth. God the Father is also a member of a “Board of Gods” or “Council of Gods” with the name Elohim (plural). The members of Elohim are Gods of other worlds.
It’s a convoluted mess that to them makes more sense than believing in the trinity.
Got that right.
Polytheism in all its glory.
That is not what I said but it is you who use the Bible like a teddy bear instead of relying on the Spirit of the Lord.
The Bible is like training wheels and than one needs to learn how to rely on The Spirit of the Lord I have not witness that from any of the posters here.
Acts 28:
22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Matt. 13:
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Rev. 2:
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Thanks for reaffirming that my statement you believe the Bible is not sufficient is EXACTLY what you said.
You go ahead and believe your demonic Spirit is from God, and I'll continue to believe in the REAL Spirit of the Lord as found in the pages of Scripture. Thanks.
You reply is truly dull
Thanks for reaffirming that my statement you believe the Bible is not sufficient is EXACTLY what you said.
Excuse me I said the REAL spirit of the Lord is found in the scriptures.
How limited is you understanding...
The scripture are training wheels..
The Bible also instructs one to exercise faith which can be cultivated if one is glue to the Book.
One needs to take the knowledge they learn and felt and learn to discern when they recognized the presents of the Lord in other places.
Than one can discern when they are in the natural man mode vs having the spirit of righteousness in their life.
There is no way a man can discern demonic Spirit when in the natural man mode.
the very thought so readly on ones lips to call others listen to demonic Spirit comes from the natural man.
Because only the Lord knows our heart and minds.
When the mainsteam rebukes one is is done in a demeaning way there is no edifying or helping to grow in the ways of the Lord
When the Lord Rebukes it is to edify and help one to grow in the Lord's his way.
Yawn, more squeeky noises on the new threadware, (scratching stomach, arising from sermon preparation). First regarding honesty Du - I have made it clear that I have read the bom and given it prayer. The FACT that I told this to you now places your comment in the category of a LIE. To quote your standard
As to liar, Please prove my intent to deceive anywhere...
You are being deceptive about what I've factually done and have relayed to you. That you have used deceptive practices previously, all I have to do is think back to those poor souls chained to their desks writing for NewAvent. Nuf said, you've lied about me - you are a liar.
Can you, or can you not show where Polygamy is condemned in the Bible,
Can you show me where in the bible polygamy is a commandment for for celestial progression - you can expand that search to include the bom too (you know, that chloroformic writing you said I've never read).
BS. You are commanded to lie. Its called Lying for the Lord in your satanic doctrine. Gospel Teaching About Lying from Elder Dallin H. Oaks, a fireside address given to faculty, students, and alumni of BYU on September 12, 1993. He goes on to give a great treatise on the sinfulness of lying then towards the end does a 180 and claims the following:
In contrast to the obligation to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, the obligation to “tell the whole truth” is subject to an important qualification…..”
“Whether a speaker is morally or legally obliged to speak ‘the whole truth’ is therefore determined by the extent of the speaker's duty to disclose……”
“The difficult question is whether we are morally responsible to tell the whole truth. When we have a duty to disclose, we are morally responsible to do so. Where there is no duty to disclose, we have two alternatives. We may be free to disclose if we choose to do so, but there will be circumstances where commandments, covenants, or professional obligations require us to remain silent.”
Another Mormon (or ex now) gives his personal testimony of being excommunicated for telling the truth Here.
You were caught deliberately lying to ME in this post. An excerpt: You said: No, Joseph smith did not answer my prayer, and I did not pray to him (we don't do that) I prayed to God and God answered and his spirit testified of the truthfulness of the book of Mormon, period, end of story…..you focus on Joseph, we focus on Christ.
I said: More lying for the Lord there Delphi???
And then I posted your own doctrine which . “From the day that the priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up things of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are -- I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:289 See also Search These Commandments, 1984, pg. 133).
I then proved your quote mining from sources you posted in Post #2133 providing the quotes which you left out in my Post #2317.
You were caught red-handed. And still you lie yet again.
Godzilla is a paid clergy…
Since I happen to be the administrative assistant to a ‘paid clergy’ for the past 20+ years now that’s a glowing recommendation for Godzilla. I’ll take that anyday over a lying, deceiving apologist who seeks to lead people into Hell for all eternity.
Like I said I’m done with you. You’re like the energizer bunny, you are rebuked and proven wrong and you bring up the same posts again and again and again. Its really hysterical how brainwashed you are. As to polygamy you were soundly rebuked by Godzilla in this post and yet again on this post and yet you bring up yet AGAIN the very same question in which you were already soundly defeated and proven wrong. I will answer this yet again by mentioning Deut. 17:17 - “neither shall he multiply wives for himself…” or I Timothy 3:2- A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,… but really Godzilla has already soundly rebuked you. What a pathetic weasel of a man you are.
When are you ever going to face the reality the LDS is a CULT resty????
You responded: I really hate to rain on your rearranging of the Bible, but Abraham becomes polygamous in Gen 16 right before God blesses him in Gen 17 and makes his covenant with him for his righteousness. You have the order mixed up, according to the Bible, it's Polygamy then blessings...
Delf, take another look @ what I said…we both agree to what I said: I said it occurred ”prior to his Gen 17 covenant…”
My point? If you look at the spiritual lives of folks, they do all kinds of things (including adultery) in their pre-covenant years!
Colofornian, didn't you just ask me not to post to you?
(No, I didn’t ask you that at all…more, not keeping my communication straight).
Delf, can’t you understand why a number of posters no longer want to receive posts from you? For one thing, you seem to underestimate the sentiment vs. polygamy. For another, even a century ago (1906) the LDS Church’s hand was finally forced (in defense of its newly elected Senator, Reed Smoot), to ex-communicate two apostles who had taken plural wives in the previous post-Manifesto years. So could you please explain in a nutshell why you continue to defend a practice that if you engaged in would get you ex-communicated from your own church?
As for underestimating the sentiment against polygamy, allow me to review:
1856: The Republican party labels polygamy & slavery as “the twin relics of Barbarism.”
1898: Organizations opposed to polygamy deliver a petition of 7 MILLION names (28 rolls’ long) to appeal to Congress to shut the door on newly elected Utah Congressman Brigham H. Roberts, a Democrat who took a third wife post-Manifesto.
1900s: One LDS missionary writes home that where he is serving, polygamy is deemed the “Monster.”
1904: Another faithful young Mormon, George Q. Morris, said [LDS prophet Joseph F.] Smith’s presentation [to Congress] left Mormonism never so much disliked in its history. (B. Carmon Hardy, A Solemn Covenant, p. 253)
1904: “By this time at least a third of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles were new, younger men who, like Smoot, had only one wife and were anxious to acquit the hectored repugation of the church. Presumbably mirroring Senator Smoot’s views, [Smoot’s secretary]…Carl A. Badger told a friend that it was wrong that the entire church should submit to insult and suffering only to protect the reputation of a few.” (A Solemn Covenant, p. 262)
Dec. 8, 1905: Smoot “wired to say that a ‘nasty bitter feeling against the church’ had become almost universal…” (A Solemn Covenant, p. 263)
Throughout 1905-1906: “…public hostility reached such a level that talk was heard of disenfranchising all Mormons, polygamous or not. Both Smoot and Franklin S. Richards said they could not remember a time when ‘the feeling was so strong and so universally opposed to the church as was at the present.’ Smoot also said that whenever he was spoken to on the matter, apostles Taylor and Cowley were always pointed to as examples of Mormon duplicity.” (A Solemn Covenant, p. 261)
One of the hallmarks of God's touch is that he uses imperfect Men like you and me and Joseph and Moses to do his perfect work. [DU]
I’m imperfect, yes indeed. You? What about the command to “Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48) Me? I’m no god-wannabe or what your prophets call a “god in embryo.” Can you make that same claim? You don’t seek exaltation? You mean to tell me there are “imperfect” gods?
Bigamy is not covered under adultery, but both Bigamy and all forms of polygamy are illegal in the USA. Are you confusing Moral and legal? Not everything legal is moral and not everything immoral is Illegal.
Ah, you point out not everything legal is moral…why is this relevant again? Are we talking about anything “legal” here? Is bigamy or polygamy “legal.” (No? Then why waste the time mentioning it?) Oh, but then you jump to not everything immoral is illegal. In your eyes, how does bigamy and polygamy pertain to that again? I mean, from your perspective polygamy IS “moral.” I guess you just had to throw that meaningless phrase in there because it would have been totally eye-opening for posters to see you state what you really believe: Not everything moral (like polygamy) is legal. But, no, you didn’t mention that in your couplet, did you Delf? You stuck to safe points of agreement like “not everything legal is moral” and “not everything immoral is illegal” instead of highlighting what you actually believe: “Not everything moral is legal.”
You could claim that, but you'd be wrong...Ex. 21: 22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Delf, talk about desperate. You give a clear Scripture talking about miscarriage (unintentional death of a preborn) & treat it as if it’s an intentional abortion. (You are sadly spiritually sick, Delf, IF you believe that all women who’ve had miscarriages—or if they’ve had an accident caused by a male close to them that results in a miscarriage—are guilty of intentional abortion!!!)
Femicide is the killing of a woman and is covered under: Ex. 20: 13
Hey, now you’re “stealing” my parallel arguments: Bedding anybody other than your first wife while she is still alive is adultery and is covered under Exodus 20. (There, see how that works? All you’re doing is justifying my parallels)
Words mean things, if adultery and Polygamy meant the same thing, you'd be right. Except they don't mean the same thing, lets actually look at the words:
Pray tell, then, Delf. Please show us all the Old Testament Hebrew word for “polygamy.” (What verses is it in?) Surely you can go to any KJV index and tell me where to find the word “polygamy.” Surely you can go to Joseph Smith’s perfect JST version of the Bible and tell me where Smith “translated” the English word, “polygamy.” (Go ahead, we’re all anxious to see those verses that mentions “polygamy” or “polygamous”…Come on, Delf, as you know “words mean things,” so if adultery and polygamy didn’t mean the same thing, why we’d see that “polygamy” has it’s set-apart word, wouldn’t we?).
In making this argument, you further said: I realize that my position is one that will get me pilloried verbally here, but I am consistent and true in my interpretations of the Bible and I will not deviate from that course tough scorn be heaped upon me from all sides, it is what eh Bible says, it is what many of the fathers of your own churches say, it is the truth and I will not depart from the truth.
What? “Polygamy” is “what the Bible says,” where? What verse uses that word that you sanction with such holiness attached to it?
BTW, so to you, Moses wrote the command not to commit adultery while living in a polygamous and therefore to you adulterous relationship? I'm sorry, but my mental picture of Moses won't allow me to picture that. Moses was a good man when he was God's prophet, and the murder he committed while in Egypt, was in self defense.
Prove it. (Please provide the death date of Moses’ first wife and the marriage date of his next wife)
God uses all men in spite of their sins, but he never calls a man committing a gross sin his Friend, or a man after mine own heart. Yes, David messed up big time later, yes Moses was slow of speech, God called them because they would follow his command, not because they were defying him.
First of all, why do you focus on Moses being slow of speech when I cited he was guilty of “murder.” (So "slow of speech" is the worst moral indictment you can bring yourself to accuse Moses of? Are you being deliberately deceptive in ignoring his murder of an Egyptian, or are you not wanting to face the truth here? (Or, is it that you don’t regard the murder of Egyptians as qualifying under your “gross sin” category?) David, too, was guilty of manslaughter in pursuit of adultery. So that’s not a “gross sin,” as well?—that’s only a “mess up big time?” (Is a “mess up big time” Mormonese for covering up a bigger sin that still keeps their “worthiness” intact?)
Beyond that, so now we have in the person of you Mr. Legalist who is able to classify all sins in a single bounce? So, Peter not confessing Jesus in public—denying him three times—I guess that’s easy for you to classify after the fact that this series of sins was some sort of Mormon misdemeanors, but Judas betraying Jesus was sin of the highest order worthy only of blood atonement, eh?
Or next you’ll tell us that Jonah’s sin of abandoning his mission field was a Mormon misdemeanor, eh? (Boy, wait til your Mission President hears you downplaying that sin!!! It might put your temple recommend at risk!)
God is indeed gracious and merciful, but he is also just. I ask you, can mercy rob justice?
The answer is “yes” at least in the person of Jesus Christ. For mercy robbed Jesus of his very life, and of what sin was he guilty of to be justly put to death? (None, other than our sin). Of course, this is not a complete answer, for we know that in the death of Christ both mercy and justice were equally involved…the justice of holding us accountable was met in the very mercy of Christ. And so justice was indeed satiated.
If you are a spouse, you are not committing adultery.
Are you serious? Let’s say you have a pedophile who preys upon a victim and tells the underaged girl that they will have a (mock) wedding so that it’s “OK” in the eyes of God & man. (And this is a parallel to what this thread is all about!!!) Are you seriously telling us that if this pedophile finds some person who will “solemnize” a (mock) wedding [you have to remember that some LDS unions were solemnized between 1890 and 1910 outdoors with no other witness than the person doing the solemnizing], that the victim is by definition a “spouse?”
You referenced James 2:14-26, but you seemed to deliberately skip in your printing the actual verses James 2:18: SHOW me your faith without deeds, and I will SHOW you my faith by what I do. What does James then do? Well, of course, you deliberately censor what James does. Again you cite the entire passage, but you conveniently leave out spelling out what James 2:21-22 says: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (James 2:21-22)
James cites how the example of Abraham’s willingness to sacrifice his son “made perfect” his faith. You seem, Delf, to be claiming that Abraham’s faith was not true faith until he was willing to sacrifice Isaac. But in James 2:23, James is citing Genesis 15:6—which says that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Who is the Speaker in Gen. 15:6? (God!!!) When did God speak these words? Was it after Abraham had “made perfect” his faith by offering up his son? (How could you even remotely place that kind of timetable into place! God spoke those words before Isaac was even born! Before he was even conceived!!! So, Delf, when are you and all the other Mormons who always try to throw James 2 in the face of Christians going to confess before Almighty God that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness before Abraham did one single thing re: Isaac? (because Isaac was nowhere in sight!!!). Abraham’s offering up of Isaac was a post-faith act. As one author said: It was a fruit and not the root of his faith, thus serving as a visible evidence of his invisible faith.
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