Posted on 12/09/2007 12:49:26 PM PST by aomagrat
Edited on 12/09/2007 12:59:09 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
[I waited 45 seconds and actually posted something substantial--Ed.]
COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — At least four people were shot outside of a Colorado Springs church on Sunday, but it was not immediately known whether the shootings were related to an earlier shooting about 70 miles away, authorities said.
:-)
Ahh.. but I never claimed to have one myself, mind you. I only struck back at the ad hominems arisng from somebody whining about perceived ad hominems.
Great analysis!
LOL. Thank-you. Was intended for #2176. Shows how much I’m really paying attention, or caring, at this point. I made my points. They weren’t addressed in subsequent replies, so I’m essentially done, now that I’m irritating others, rather than eliciting laughter.
It's him. Same posts in some instances. Read the long bit at the right which details an experience with YWAM.
Seriously, even if that's the case, it is not "severely damaging." I've gone through worse "damage" than that if that is damage. Non-starter.
Right. Like kids never lie about child abuse, an adult would never lie about spiritual abuse. The truth is that you don't know what he experienced. In fact, if you can find a claim that he specifically makes of abuse (not typical teenage angst), I'd love to read it. I didn't see any.
Thank you bass... I see that now — I hadn’t read through the rest of the blog posting and/or compared his writing when I wrote that post — it was purely a knee jerk reaction.... I appreciate your setting me straight though! :)
I agree with what you’ve said here.
That's correct. It also included any music, radio and TV.
"I am 22 years old and I was raised in Bill Gothard's homeschool program all the way through high school. I went to both the Basic and Advanced Seminars. My Mother was fully into both Bill Gothard's programs AND the Charismatic movement. She followed Peter Wagner, Mike Bickle, Joyce Meyer, Ted Haggard of New Life Church, Cindy Jacobs, Dutch Sheets and any other person who was popular in the Charismatic movement at the time.
In addition to all of Bill Gothard's insanity my mother was into all the charismatic/"fanatical evangelical" insanity. Her and her church believed that Satan and demons were everywhere in everything. The rules were VERY strict all the time. We couldn't have ANY christian or non-christian music at all except for a few charismatic worship CDs. There was physical abuse in my home. My mother although used psychotropic drugs because she somehow thought it would make it easier to control me(I've never been diagnosed with any mental illness either). Pastors would always come and interrogate me over video games or TV watching or other things. There were NO FRIENDS outside the church and family and even then only family members who were in the church. You could not trust anyone at all because anyone might be a spy.
"I am still awaiting a single example of this mother's alleged child abuse."
See above. How about feeding the kid moldy food and cereal dug out of the garbage disposal.
Here is Matthew 12:18 in context which he cited in “Prophetic Child”.
http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Mat.+12+9-21
This “Prophetic Child” was citing a quotation of Isaiah which was used to point to Jesus being the Messiah. Either he was making up verses, wrote down the wrong verse, picked a cool verse he could adopt into his own little messianic narrative, or he is the world’s biggest bible n00b.
Um...really? Does this ring true? Not to me.
There was physical abuse in my home.
I didn't catch this before. But I'm not sure what this entails. If it means his mom spanked him, then I'm going to have to say, "Whoopee." If more than that, then you have a bit of an argument.
Please understand that I came out of the same environment in many ways. And I have many friends who have come out of it as well. And many times they exaggerate the wrongs they suffered. "I had to wear dresses." Ok, might not be the funnest thing, but it's not even approaching abuse. "I couldn't listen to music." Ok, I think that's misguided for a parent, but how does that make it ok for the kid to not "find himself?" Did people not find themselves before we had CDs and DVDs? Bravo Sierra.
I'm sure it had nothing to do with his behavior. This kid was probably troubled from almost birth. That's my guess. I think legalism was the worst thing that could have happened to him. But it's not the fault of legalism. In fact, I think it's barely a contributing cause. He made plenty of choices. He didn't want to get better from his time in the church (whatever real or imagined wrongs were done to him). He wanted to be mad. Wanted to be right. Wanted to be in power and in control over those he felt had been over him. That's not because he didn't get to listen to N'Sync or play with Teletubbies. That's the selfish nature of sin at its core.
And you know this how???
At least when I speculate I state clearly that I am doing such. And, when this is clearly pointed out to you, you insist that everyone else is wrong, and that you’ve got a special hold on the truth — even though we did not know this person ourselves, and there is no way ANY of us could know for sure exactly what went on in his life...
You make an assumption that he was completely isolated, that his mother took away “normal” things from him, but yet you offer no proof of these assertions. You see that his father was a well respected member of society, successful and most likely busy, but you really have no clue what kind of father he was. You and I have no real proof that the father never spent time with his children, or cared about them... Again, all you do is take his rantings and assume that everything he alleges is true, at the same time that you admit (and assume) that he was in the grips of a psychosis so strong that he had no control over himself. That he had no sense of self at all... You cannot know these things for sure, but you state them as if you have no doubt... I find that rather strange, personally...
You seem to be taking everything at face value, looking for someone — anyone — to assign blame to instead of the person himself... The truth is at some point we are all responsible for our own actions. There was obviously a time in this man’s life that he KNEW he was sick, and yet turned his back on the help offered to him — that was a choice he made.
One cannot force another to “get well”. Despite all the best medications and doctors in the world if someone truly doesn’t wish to get better they won’t...
He even speaks of how to manipulate doctors and other professionals into believing you’re not a real threat to yourself or others. He counsels people on how to lie to suicide prevention workers — don’t say you have a plan, don’t admit you hear voices, etc... etc... This is a sign of someone who KNOWS there is something wrong, who KNOWS that it is not “normal” to feel this way. Someone who is intent on manipulating the people around him — especially those in a unique position to help. When one is truly experiencing psychosis of the sort you are assuming he was you are NOT in control enough of your mental functions to think through what you are doing and saying to the point of manipulating others in this way... At least no-one that I’ve ever seen who was truly experincing a psychotic break was that in control... I question whether you really understand these things — or whether you are making yet more assumptions based upon some ideation of “self-esteem” and childhood abuse.
I would also question whether or not you are decidedly anti-Christian because in between the lines of your post I hear the same sort of accusations and assumptions — that all who feel strongly against some of the more negative influences in our society and attempt to guard against the influence in their children are to blame... If he experienced all of these things why is not his brother then reacting the same way??? Again, it comes back to choices, and/or outright manipulation...
Also, consider this guy has no problem posting lyrics from obscure (and some not-so-obscure) rock bands as though they are his own poetry. He likes to exaggerate his importance and his sense of who he is. And if regaling a sympathetic audience of ex-Pentecostalers with exaggerated stories will get him that importance and sympathy, he’d do it.
No, not by his perception. That's my judgement, as per his demonstration of a complete failure to have any solid concept of self at all.
Re: He had no foundation, or concept of self.
"But when it comes down to detailing the wrongs done to him..."
Apparently you don't understand the concept of self and the foundation of one's personality. Percieved wrongs are irrelevant. Actual wrongs, which were never percieved are relevant. He was never taught to think. He was lost in that dept., because he was never taught anything more than the illogical program content fed to him in the homeschool for 18+yrs. The person that he was and the world he knew disintegrated when he realized it was all falsehoods and his place in the world had been no more than a pawn in that program, a prisoner of all those around him, who had lied to him and kept him prisoner.
Unlike others that find a niche in becoming one of the manipulators in that program, because that's a comfortable out, Murray rejected it all. Others would simply go brain dead and accept it, like folks in the red chinese cultural revolution. Same phenominon. That left him empty. His self worth and entire past was nothing. ~2004 is when he delved into all he knew as an option, which was the M. Mason stuff.
"he wasn't allowed on a missions trip and some Christians were hypocrites and other Christians didn't answer all of his epistemological questions to his satisfaction and some other Christian kids didn't invite him to their parties."
That's irrelevant. Focusing on that simply avoids noting the fundamental problem here, so that the problem can be irrationally presented as evil vs the "Christians".
"He focuses only on confusion and contradiction. It gives him an out."
No. He wanted an out, because all there was is confusion and contradiction.
"He wants no answers."
I didn't see that. What I did see is that he was unable to obtain them.
"He is not an innocent bystander witnessing it."
He was an innocent child that had it all shoved down his throat for 18 years.
Re: His dad wasn't around much. " You know this how? It might be a reasonable assumption. But it is an assumption.
No, it's a fact. The old man was both a pentacostal and a neurologist. He wasn't around much.
"Mr. Murray chose to stop therapy (apparently both counseling and pharamacotherapy). He mentions that Christians even tried to help him.
LOL. From ma's docs and pills? He needed a real psychiatrist, because the damage was significant.
"He clearly thinks he has suffered more than anyone, ever, comparing his suffering to sexual abuse (though he never makes an accusation of sexual abuse)."
What was done to him is similar. In both cases the victim is treated as an object, not a person.
"So, it's not anyone's fault that he didn't learn to heal other than his own."
Yeah, right. That's why schools were established. His homeschooling there didn't work too well. The results prove it. The same goes for other programs.
"He didn't even make a good faith effort. And if you don't make a good faith effort to get well, you must like being sick."
He didn't know how and there was no one competent around to show him. I did note a few moderators on the xpentacostal board told him to get help, but competent help isn't redily available. He needed someone else to do that for him, because w/o a sense of self and no personality the only help he knew was death. That's suicide.
I did. It's evidence that there's nothing inside to draw from, so he has to copy.
"He likes to exaggerate his importance and his sense of who he is."
There's nothing there, so he invents and pretends.
"And if regaling a sympathetic audience of ex-Pentecostalers with exaggerated stories will get him that importance and sympathy, he’d do it."
There's plenty in his background there, so there's no reason to copy, or to invent. The moderators at that board noted his problem there and told him to get help, because they recognized the damage and sensed the problems.
And his response was?
Now that you have, in your most recent two posts, completely displayed your anti-Christian (or at least, anti-religious) biases, your posts make much more sense. Thanks for the revelations. It shall make your future posts more sensical, if less relevant.
Once again, though I hate having to constantly repeat myself, this is not possible. The fact that they had DVD players, CD players and game consoles in their home, necessarily implies that they had DVDs, CDs, and games to insert into these electronic boxes. What's more, in the link you just pointed me to, he talks about his mother going through his collection of CDs DVDs and video games and removing the ones she doesn't want him to have.
Bottom Line once again: She never forbid ALL music, movies and games in her house. She just threw out certain ones. Sounds pretty normal to me! This is what we've done with our kids. On this single issue of "electronic entertainment," the only thing he claims his mother did, that we ourselves have not done with our kids, is to ban all Christian music CDs that are not worship CDs. I do find that too strict, but still light years short of "child abuse," which is the end result we're trying to establish here.
How about feeding the kid moldy food and cereal dug out of the garbage disposal.
I read the entire post you linked to, and never found this claimed anywhere. Was this some other forum poster you're mixing him up with perhaps? I'd like to see the actual claim before I comment.
..... Bill Gothard's programs AND .... [long list of other Christian authors]
I've not been exposed to Gothard, but if half of what I've read about him is true, he pushes a very legalistic doctrine. If MM was subjected to a very legalistic regimen, then I would tend to agree that this was a poor parenting choice on his mother's part, though we of course are second guessing her based on a minimum of facts, a heavy slanting of the few facts we have, and no opportunity to hear her side of the story.
But still, "poor parenting choices" are not equivalent to "child abuse," or else I'm guilty of child abuse hundreds of times!
There are other points of disagreement I want to make about your post, but I need to turn in for the night. BOTTOM LINE SO FAR: Still nothing remotely approaching child abuse demonstrated here.
No, unless any kid who's in public school who acts out in similar way proves that they should have been homeschooled. Or else your analysis is just 20/20 hindsight and little more than a parlor trick.
Apparently you don't understand the concept of self and the foundation of one's personality.
Apparently, you think that one cannot find one's self in religion.
That's irrelevant. Focusing on that simply avoids noting the fundamental problem here, so that the problem can be irrationally presented as evil vs the "Christians".
Except that is how he presents it. This is not the framing of the Christians of his narrative. It's his narrative. Which makes it completely relevant (except to you, with your own presuppositions and biases).
LOL. From ma's docs and pills? He needed a real psychiatrist, because the damage was significant.
And you know he didn't see one how? You obviously have much more information than the rest of us (snicker). You further repeat your claim that his father is absent simply from the evidence that he's a doctor and a pentecostal. You offer no proof other than "ha ha, it's obvious." Your credibility strains credulity.
With your obvious negative religious biases, your conclusions will always only end in one place, evidence be damned. Continue on apace.
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