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To: the808bass
"By severely damaging, you mean that by his perception they were severely damaging."

No, not by his perception. That's my judgement, as per his demonstration of a complete failure to have any solid concept of self at all.

Re: He had no foundation, or concept of self.

"But when it comes down to detailing the wrongs done to him..."

Apparently you don't understand the concept of self and the foundation of one's personality. Percieved wrongs are irrelevant. Actual wrongs, which were never percieved are relevant. He was never taught to think. He was lost in that dept., because he was never taught anything more than the illogical program content fed to him in the homeschool for 18+yrs. The person that he was and the world he knew disintegrated when he realized it was all falsehoods and his place in the world had been no more than a pawn in that program, a prisoner of all those around him, who had lied to him and kept him prisoner.

Unlike others that find a niche in becoming one of the manipulators in that program, because that's a comfortable out, Murray rejected it all. Others would simply go brain dead and accept it, like folks in the red chinese cultural revolution. Same phenominon. That left him empty. His self worth and entire past was nothing. ~2004 is when he delved into all he knew as an option, which was the M. Mason stuff.

"he wasn't allowed on a missions trip and some Christians were hypocrites and other Christians didn't answer all of his epistemological questions to his satisfaction and some other Christian kids didn't invite him to their parties."

That's irrelevant. Focusing on that simply avoids noting the fundamental problem here, so that the problem can be irrationally presented as evil vs the "Christians".

"He focuses only on confusion and contradiction. It gives him an out."

No. He wanted an out, because all there was is confusion and contradiction.

"He wants no answers."

I didn't see that. What I did see is that he was unable to obtain them.

"He is not an innocent bystander witnessing it."

He was an innocent child that had it all shoved down his throat for 18 years.

Re: His dad wasn't around much. " You know this how? It might be a reasonable assumption. But it is an assumption.

No, it's a fact. The old man was both a pentacostal and a neurologist. He wasn't around much.

"Mr. Murray chose to stop therapy (apparently both counseling and pharamacotherapy). He mentions that Christians even tried to help him.

LOL. From ma's docs and pills? He needed a real psychiatrist, because the damage was significant.

"He clearly thinks he has suffered more than anyone, ever, comparing his suffering to sexual abuse (though he never makes an accusation of sexual abuse)."

What was done to him is similar. In both cases the victim is treated as an object, not a person.

"So, it's not anyone's fault that he didn't learn to heal other than his own."

Yeah, right. That's why schools were established. His homeschooling there didn't work too well. The results prove it. The same goes for other programs.

"He didn't even make a good faith effort. And if you don't make a good faith effort to get well, you must like being sick."

He didn't know how and there was no one competent around to show him. I did note a few moderators on the xpentacostal board told him to get help, but competent help isn't redily available. He needed someone else to do that for him, because w/o a sense of self and no personality the only help he knew was death. That's suicide.

2,416 posted on 12/12/2007 12:10:34 AM PST by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: spunkets
His homeschooling there didn't work too well. The results prove it.

No, unless any kid who's in public school who acts out in similar way proves that they should have been homeschooled. Or else your analysis is just 20/20 hindsight and little more than a parlor trick.

Apparently you don't understand the concept of self and the foundation of one's personality.

Apparently, you think that one cannot find one's self in religion.

That's irrelevant. Focusing on that simply avoids noting the fundamental problem here, so that the problem can be irrationally presented as evil vs the "Christians".

Except that is how he presents it. This is not the framing of the Christians of his narrative. It's his narrative. Which makes it completely relevant (except to you, with your own presuppositions and biases).

LOL. From ma's docs and pills? He needed a real psychiatrist, because the damage was significant.

And you know he didn't see one how? You obviously have much more information than the rest of us (snicker). You further repeat your claim that his father is absent simply from the evidence that he's a doctor and a pentecostal. You offer no proof other than "ha ha, it's obvious." Your credibility strains credulity.

With your obvious negative religious biases, your conclusions will always only end in one place, evidence be damned. Continue on apace.

2,420 posted on 12/12/2007 1:23:22 AM PST by the808bass
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To: spunkets

imho, you make some good observations and speculations, conjectures.

However, I still disagree about his sense of self.

I believe he developed a self that was perhaps schizoid somewhat in earlier slipping back and forth between compliance and outraged rebellion at always failing to measure up.

I think the latter evolved into THE REBEL reasonably early on though cloaked behind a lot of pretense and role playing . . . understandably.

I think the ENRAGED REBEL became his identity relatively early on . . . but with mixed results and with a varying degree of stability.


2,446 posted on 12/12/2007 6:09:37 AM PST by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: spunkets
He needed a real psychiatrist, because the damage was significant.

It sounds like he needed a cult deprogrammer. Where do you find a good one? How much do they cost? How do you find one who won't destroy the core of your faith? Somehow he still knew that God was love, but didn't see that in those around him. He did see the hypocrisy in many of them. To a sensitive, vulnerable soul, it does sound like abuse even though some of it could be imaginary or not such a big deal to a healthier personality. He didn't know how to deal with rejection, and how do average people not reject people who frighten them? By the time you are in this kind of abnormal mental state, everybody rejects you. He was crying for help on that board. Too bad somebody who could intervene or do something didn't pick up on it.

Did you see that video of Rick he linked to? I couldn't watch it all. Outwardly he seemed so calm. Why didn't someone pick up on his cry for help, or was the video posted after he had killed the two women and himself? Some professional could have caught it. At least the ex pentecostals recognized his need for professional help, but they wouldn't know the best kind. I wouldn't either, wouldn't know how to find the right person.

There were so many clues and red flags. One guy knew it was Matthew, wonder if he tried to alert the authorities. Better not say any more because it gores some sacred oxes.

2,449 posted on 12/12/2007 6:19:22 AM PST by Aliska
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