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Medical experts never testified in Katrina hospital deaths
CNN ^ | 8/26/07 | Drew Griffin and Kathleen Johnston

Posted on 08/26/2007 11:12:24 AM PDT by wagglebee

(CNN) -- A New Orleans grand jury that declined to indict a doctor on charges that she murdered patients in the chaotic days after Hurricane Katrina never heard testimony from five medical experts brought in by the state to analyze the deaths.

All five concluded that as many as nine patients were victims of homicide.

In detailed, written statements, the five specialists -- whose expertise includes forensic medicine, medical ethics and palliative care -- determined that patients at Memorial Medical Center had been deliberately killed with overdoses of drugs after Katrina struck New Orleans in 2005.

The grand jury had been asked to consider second-degree murder charges against a doctor and two nurses in four deaths. But in July, the grand jury decided that no one should be indicted.

A grand jury is charged with determining whether there is sufficient evidence to indict a defendant and pursue a trial. The grand jury's proceedings are held in secret, and grand jurors and officers of the court are typically prohibited from divulging what goes on in grand jury sessions.

In a decision that puzzled the five experts hired by the state, New Orleans District Attorney Eddie Jordan never called them to testify before the grand jury. What remains unclear, because of grand jury secrecy laws, is whether the grand jury even saw the experts' written reports.

"They weren't interested in presenting those facts to the grand jury," said Dr. Cyril Wecht, the former coroner of Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, and a past president of the American Academy of Forensic Scientists.

"The hard scientific facts are those from five leading experts, [the patients died] from massive lethal doses of morphine and Versed. As far as I know the toxicological findings were not presented to the grand jury and certainly not with quantitative analysis."

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: Louisiana
KEYWORDS: annapou; bioethics; euthanasia; hurricanekatrina; moralabsolutes; morphine; neworleans; pou; prolife
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To: spunkets

Your attempt at humor escapes me.


101 posted on 08/26/2007 2:53:20 PM PDT by Iwo Jima ("Close the border. Then we'll talk.")
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To: Mamzelle
Newsflash--the evidence of discussion is hearsay, and even if they did discuss, discussing is discussing, not doing.

Louisiana law is in many ways different from the rest of the country. However, there is a hearsay exemption for statements against one's own interests. Also, I believe hearsay is permissible in a grand jury proceeding (there is nobody to object to it).

102 posted on 08/26/2007 2:53:28 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Iwo Jima
"I think that you are misreading the evidence. I don't think the the experts have any problem releasing their reports and exact numbers. However, a court has sealed them."

A court can not seal hard evidence of a crime. A court can not seal the mouth of a witness to a crime, which in this case is the con doc that refuses to deal in facts.

103 posted on 08/26/2007 2:53:57 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: balch3

And like his father did in Rodney King.


104 posted on 08/26/2007 2:53:58 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Yes, that’s it, WB. Thanks!


105 posted on 08/26/2007 2:54:17 PM PDT by Iwo Jima ("Close the border. Then we'll talk.")
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To: pterional

15K old folks in nursing homes died in France the summer of their big heat wave...imagine the hell of an unairconditioned hospital ward, no running water, no light...wonder if they knocked the windows out to get a little air.


106 posted on 08/26/2007 2:57:17 PM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: pterional
Court? What court? I didn't even know that the case had gone to trial. Was it a civil or criminal trial?

All that I knew had happened is that, based on the evidence presented to them, a grand jury returned a no bill, having been presented with no testimony from any of the five medical experts on whose opinions the charges were based. Had I been on the grand jury, I would have done the same.

Of course, new charges can be filed and the available evidence presented to this or another grand jury, hopefully with a different outcome.
107 posted on 08/26/2007 2:58:53 PM PDT by Iwo Jima ("Close the border. Then we'll talk.")
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To: Mamzelle

Yes, I have a VERY big gripe with the prosecutor and his legal tactics. Not so much with the judge who does not make these decisions.


108 posted on 08/26/2007 3:00:53 PM PDT by Iwo Jima ("Close the border. Then we'll talk.")
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To: wagglebee
re: Louisiana law is in many ways different from the rest of the country.)))

You ain't just whistlin' Dixie.

Let's just say, then, that hearsay shouldn't convict someone of murder.

Also, people often discuss things that they really have no intention of doing, particularly under conditions of duress. So I don't find "discussions" particularly convincing as evidence.

Everyday, there are terrible crimes of black humor being committed in the hallways of our hospitals! The shame of it, Corporal Klinger.

109 posted on 08/26/2007 3:01:56 PM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: wagglebee

There are experts and there are experts. You can probably get as many as you wish to testify on either side. I’m sure the state would only bring in ‘experts’ who would strengthen the state’s case.

I’ve only briefly followed this story. Question -— How many patients received morphine? And how many of those died? All?


110 posted on 08/26/2007 3:05:27 PM PDT by Exit148 (Founder of the Loose Change Club. Every nickle and dime counts!!)
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To: Iwo Jima
"Multiple witnesses who were there have publicly stated otherwise. On what basis do you disbelieve them?"

On the basis of the 8mg dose, failure of any of the whining parties to give evidence that lethal does were administered, and the fact that the one doc fled the scene. IMO, his accusaitons are simply an attempt at obfuscation to cover for and excuse his desertion.

The discussion may have involved discussions of appropriate dose, and/or treatment, but it was not the intent of anyone to cause death. I think these were terminal patients and believe the docs intent was to comfort them, not to kill them.

111 posted on 08/26/2007 3:06:31 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: Iwo Jima
"Your attempt at humor escapes me."

See Luke 10:30-37.

112 posted on 08/26/2007 3:12:49 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: wagglebee

Prof that prosecutors only get the indictments they want.


113 posted on 08/26/2007 3:50:01 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: spunkets
As far as I can tell, everyone admits that lethal doses were given, even Dr. Pou. While she says that her INTENT was not to kill them, but she admits that her actions did.

The account of the "doctor who fled the scene" is supported by other staff who were there and to my knowledge has never been disputed.

The 8 mg dose is not what is at issue and is just a smokescreen you are hiding behind.

You Pou apologists need to get their stories straight. You are working against each other, and her.
114 posted on 08/26/2007 3:57:01 PM PDT by Iwo Jima ("Close the border. Then we'll talk.")
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To: Exit148
According to this article, 9 and 9.

See my post #51.

It wasn't just the morphine, it was the combination of morphine and versed in doses which were known to be lethal.
115 posted on 08/26/2007 3:59:40 PM PDT by Iwo Jima ("Close the border. Then we'll talk.")
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To: Iwo Jima
You Pou apologists need to get their stories straight.

It must be difficult for the culture of death to weigh their options.

The have two basic choices in any case:
1. The dead person wanted to be killed and/or it was the "humane" thing to do. (With this option, they cannot seem to accept that this is still illegal.)
or
2. There was no intent to kill the person. (They really hate this option because it totally contradicts their premise that euthanasia is ALWAYS "humane.")

116 posted on 08/26/2007 4:15:33 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Iwo Jima
"The 8 mg dose is not what is at issue and is just a smokescreen you are hiding behind."

No. That is the dose that indicates what they all probably recieved. The lawyer gave the dose that was given to his ma. Are you going to tell me doc Pau noted the old lady's kid was a lawyer, so she got singled out for a special dose?

"As far as I can tell, everyone admits that lethal doses were given, even Dr. Pou."

She absolutely denies giving a lethal dose, and so do the others involved.

"The account of the "doctor who fled the scene" is supported by other staff who were there and to my knowledge has never been disputed."

The account of the doc that deserted has been vigorously disputed by all those he slandered. As I said, there may have been a discussion regarding treatment, but no one advocated killing the patients.

"You Pou apologists need to get their stories straight."

Ridiculous. You've provided no concrete evidence, such as the results of a tox report that shows the presence of a lethal dose of meds. You're following the lead of a deserter and "experts" that have repeatedly and still fail to provide any evidence whatsoever that a crime was committed.

117 posted on 08/26/2007 4:17:03 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: wagglebee
"The have two basic choices in any case:"

Nonsense. You left out the doc's stated intent, whwich was to sedate them through the ordeal. The 8mg morphine dose + versed is consistant with that.

118 posted on 08/26/2007 4:19:52 PM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: spunkets

No, you are just flat wrong on all accounts.


119 posted on 08/26/2007 4:21:59 PM PDT by Iwo Jima ("Close the border. Then we'll talk.")
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To: spunkets

NO! That is very clearly covered under option 2.


120 posted on 08/26/2007 4:23:27 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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