Posted on 06/23/2007 1:28:02 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
(AP) SALT LAKE CITY -- Mitt Romney said Saturday that criticism of his Mormon religion by rival GOP presidential campaigns is happening too frequently.
“Clearly, any derogatory comments about anyone’s faith—those comments are troubling. The fact they keep on coming up is even more troubling,” Romney said during a fundraising trip in the home state of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Mormon church is one of the fastest-growing religions and claims about 12.5 million members worldwide. But many evangelical Christians in crucial primary states such as Iowa and South Carolina consider the faith a cult.
Romney’s remarks follow an apology from GOP rival John McCain’s campaign for comments about the Mormon church allegedly made this year by a volunteer.
Also recently, Republican presidential hopeful, Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas, issued a similar apology for a campaign worker’s e-mail to Iowa Republican leaders that was an apparent attempt to draw unfavorable scrutiny of Romney’s religion. Former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani apologized after the New York Sun noted that a campaign aide had forwarded to a blogger a story about unofficial Mormon lore. Legend has it that a Mormon would save the Constitution, the story said. The campaign aide passed the story along with a note: “Thought you’d find this interesting.”
Romney said in a large presidential race there always will be some volunteers or workers who cannot be controlled. But he said the difference between derogatory comments that originated from the McCain campaign and others is that the Arizona senator has not personally apologized to him.
“In the case of Senator Brownback and Mayor Giuliani ... they called immediately. They each spoke with me personally. I don’t have any issue with that at all,” Romney said.
He said McCain “can do whatever he feels is the right thing. There’s no need for me to suggest how people respond to things that go on in the campaign.”
Tucker Bounds, a McCain campaign spokesman, said the McCain campaign has already apologized.
“It’s a very sincere apology. There is absolutely no place for those type of comments in our campaign,” he said.
Romney, a former governor of Massachusetts, said he had not spoken with McCain since the last presidential debate, on June 5.
Romney used a fundraiser hosted by Utah Jazz owner Larry Miller to criticize the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law. It banned unregulated, unlimited contributions from corporations, unions and wealthy individuals to national political parties and federal candidates.
“The bill ought to be repealed,” he said. “It’s been the wrong course for American campaigns.”
Romney said he favors unlimited donations as long as they are immediately disclosed on the Internet.
Romney was attending fundraisers in Salt Lake City and in Logan on Saturday.
> Let’s see... the long list of things where the practices of the LDS Church have changed...
I don’t think we should go there. Other Christian faiths have... ummm... had a Voyage of Discovery too. It wasn’t so long ago that witches were hanged or burned at the stake, or heretics were tortured, or Jews forceably baptized.
As Christians our walk is difficult and fraught with opportunity to get things wrong. That is why it is a narrow and twisted path that we follow.
Sure, Mormons have plenty to be ashamed of in their past and rightly so. So do Catholics, so do we all.
Evangelicals too: anyone remember Jimmy Bakker? The sinningest holy man ever since St Paul, yet he eventually came right. Or Jimmy Swaggart? A sinner if ever there was one.
Which of us can say we are any better than them?
I wish everyone would just shut up and follow Our Lord and Master as best we can, and nevermind about the other fellow.
*DieHard*
~”I’m willing to do this just for the shear entertainment value.”~
[I got it. It was funny. A bit gross, but funny.]
Well thank you tantiboth. It is hardly a secret that I try to stretch things to the breaking point. Hopefully I do it for a purpose rather than just to be mean.
“Joseph Smith’s denial in a sermon that he was a polygamist (a lie) was in History of the Church, volume 6.”
Would you mind providing a quote, with a date? I’m afraid I’ve misplaced my sixth volume of the History of the Church. I suspect there’s a disconnect in the verbiage, or the time stamp.
~”The reality is the prophecy didn’t come true.”~
See, that’s the problem. It was a commandment to go on a mission. It was not a prophecy that the man would go on a mission. The exact verse:
“Verily thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world.”
Why did God command Patten to go on a mission He knew he wouldn’t fulfill? I don’t know. You can ask Him when you see Him.
~”Finally, the Mormon’s believe in multiple Gods. This contradicts the entire Bible...”~
We do not. We believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. If there are others out there in the vastness of the cosmos, it doesn’t matter to us; such are not our Father, and so are not worshiped.
We do believe that man has the -potential- to become like God, and that this life is a trial to judge our worthiness to do so. We believe that we are literally children of God, and, just as your child has the potential to become like you, we each have the potential to become like God, although we are in an embryonic phase of that development.
Incidentally, this clarifies the verses you quoted. In some sense, we are each already gods, in that we are in an embryonic form of what God is. Verses 6 and 7 fit in with this nicely: “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.”
> Indeed. So, the philosophical question becomes, did the Pharisees, given their works, really have faith? Are faith and good works really separable?
We know the works of the Pharisees, and it demonstrated their faith. As a result of their faith they nailed our Lord and Master to the Cross — by proxy, mind: they couldn’t afford to get their own hands dirty. Certainly not during Passover.
How badly wrong could they have gotten it? What part of “Thou shalt not Kill, Thou shalt not bear False Witness” did they not understand?
Yet it is so. And because they sinned and rejected their Messiah we all now have a Hope, and an opportunity to be redeemed by His blood.
You make excellent points. Thanks!
Thank you for accurately representing our beliefs.
Can you cite those verses for me, please? Again, Lucifer was an angel, we are human. “Largely drawn from what you believe to be modern revelation”. You mean something Joseph Smith said?
~”There is obvious coordination of the Mormon Church with the Romney campaign, it would be a lie to think not.”~
Prove it. I’m sure there are plenty of regulators out there trying to.
~”...what I do have a problem with is your speaking out of two sides of your mouth.”~
Then let me be very clear: There is evidence that Romney consulted with LDS Church leaders (which, I think, any religious faithful would want to do). There is no evidence that LDS Church leaders are directing activities of the Romney campaign, or actively participating in fund raising for said campaign (I do not consider Holland’s initiation of the network at BYU as active participation - perhaps you will disagree).
You have made both charges. I concede the first. I reject the second. This is not speaking out of both sides of my mouth. It is making a logical separation the two charges that you made simultaneously.
~”Do I act stupid that you think you can get away with a shell game like this?”~
No comment. Next question.
~”If we allow this two-sided thinking, there is absolutely no argument that can be won against you - so I believe I should take the same tact (I am always right, except when I am wrong, in which case it was a mistake)”~
Fair enough. Let’s take this to its logical conclusion. I will not attack your faith, and you will not attack mine. I will not work to undermine a candidate on the basis of faith, and neither will you.
“...political leaders and power brokers that are faithful show incredible strains that lead to bad decisions.”
Examples please? What -faithful- (and by that, I mean, by definition, law-abiding) LDS power brokers have been led -by their faith- to make bad decisions? Precisely what strains do you reference?
“Well, we started this thread by you implying I completely made up the involvement of the Mormon hierarchy with Romney, which accusation you’ve obviously been forced to eat (without apology I might add) after I provided a legitimate link.”
I believe my exact words were “I highly doubt that.” If you take that as a personal implication of dishonesty, then I’ve got a little extra skin over here you can slather on.
“What part of “Mormon hierarchy involvement” don’t you understand?”
The “involvement.” “Hey, Elder Holland, how are you? I’m running for president. What do you think about that? Know anybody that might be willing to help out? Thanks a bunch!” does not seem like involvement to me. Now, do I know that that’s all that went on? Of course not. But you don’t have any evidence that anything more sinister happened, either.
Both of us are colored by our own perceptions on this matter, and it’s very destructive to accuse one another of duplicity for that disagreement.
“Can you cite those verses for me, please?”
Sure, here are a couple:
Revelation 12:7-9 - According to LDS doctrine, we were among “Michael and his angels.”
Isaiah 14:12-14 - In LDS theology, “son of the morning” referred to the members of the great governing council in our pre-mortal life that included Jesus Christ.
I could go on, but I make it a practice to not delve too deeply into scripture in this forum; nobody agrees on what they mean, anyway, and I don’t care to fight about it.
One place where you and I will find a disconnect is the definition of “angel.” In Mormon beliefs, an angel is a servant/messenger of God, but is just as much His child as you and I - but is not currently in his mortal life.
In that sense, Lucifer was an angel - until, through his pride, he fell. But, spiritually, and angel and a human are kindred.
~”You mean something Joseph Smith said?”~
Yes, among others. Like I have indicated it is difficult to come to the conclusions I have outlined if you don’t have the clarification of modern prophets. Since no other denomination accepts that possibility, their followers continue to disagree with us on these points.
So you’re saying they have to be baptized before God will let them enter Heaven? Then, what you’re saying is that God is a liar (forgive me Lord, but I have to make this point). But God isn’t a liar. Jesus dying on the Cross and raising from the dead was for what? Nothing? Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Me”. Christ told the thief on the cross next to Him that “today you will be with Me in Paradise”. I don’t think the thief was baptized, was Jesus lying to him? I don’t think so.
I have a close friend who’s daughter is married to a Mormon. He has three children from a previous marriage who attended the Mormon Church. They came home one Sunday all upset because they were told that their dad and new wife were going to hell because they weren’t married in the Mormon church. They’ve also been baptized for the dead and the oldest one now is only 13. This religion puts up a facade of being christian but they don’t have a clue about it. Yes, most of them are moral people, but you’re missing the True Message of Christ.
How it sticks in my craw that J. Smith has elevated himself above Christ. Lucifer tried to do that with God and look at what happened to him. This world has false prophets a plenty. You can all have organized religion, I don’t need it. Trying to live a christian life is enough for me. Doctrines get in the way of what Christ was trying to teach us. Putting God first before man is what I strive for.
If you want to try and convince people you have a valid religion, you should back it up with Scripture, and not J. Smith’s version of it either. I’ve read some of the Book of Mormon, and all I can say is I will pray that God takes the blinders off your eyes. How easily some are deceived.
~”So you’re saying they have to be baptized before God will let them enter Heaven?”~
We believe that baptism is a necessary ordinance that must be completed for an individual to return to God. This is different than Paradise. If you’d like, we can get into this discussion.
~”They came home one Sunday all upset because they were told that their dad and new wife were going to hell because they weren’t married in the Mormon church.”~
Then they had an unfortunate experience. What can I say? Kids say mean things sometimes. That doesn’t make it true.
~”They’ve also been baptized for the dead and the oldest one now is only 13.”~
Nobody under the age of 12 participates. It’s a hard and fast rule. I’d recheck.
~”This religion puts up a facade of being christian but they don’t have a clue about it.”~
This has been, until now, a rather pleasant conversation. I suggest we keep it that way.
I am a Mormon. I am a Christian. Period. You are not qualified to judge differently - only One is. The fact that we disagree on the interpretations of some scriptures hardly gives you that qualification.
~”Yes, most of them are moral people, but you’re missing the True Message of Christ.”~
Please, what is the True Message of Christ that I’m missing? I’ll bet we have much more in common in this area than you suspect.
~”How it sticks in my craw that J. Smith has elevated himself above Christ.”~
He did not. There is a quote, often taken out of context, that our detractors try to use to claim this; but the charge is untrue.
~”This world has false prophets a plenty.”~
Indeed. “You shall know them by their fruits.” I’d say that a religious system where it can be said of its members that “most of them are moral people” is a pretty good fruit, for example.
~”You can all have organized religion, I don’t need it. Trying to live a christian life is enough for me.”~
OK, God bless you.
~”I’ve read some of the Book of Mormon, and all I can say is I will pray that God takes the blinders off your eyes.”~
I appreciate your concern. I do wish there were, however, some way that I could explain exactly what the Book of Mormon has given to me. The words fail me miserably.
~”How easily some are deceived.”~
That’s true; that’s why I asked the Lord if it was the truth. The answer is why I stay.
I would rather you’d said something along the lines of what the Bible has given you. But, oh well.
You’re right, it’s not my place to judge, for that I’m sorry. But why do Mormons cling to the Book of Mormon, when the Bible should be sufficient?
Joseph Smith had some stones, they call them seer stones. Doesn’t the Bible warn us not to dabble in the occult? Now don’t get me wrong, I’m just asking. But what was his purpose in doing that? Actually the Bible is very explicitly against those practices. It draws us farther away from God, not closer.
I think if one were to view the Beatitudes aka Sermon on the Mount as a progression, because man is a work in progress, they might understand why the restoration was vital and is very much revealed in of all the Lord standard works!
The Sermon on the Mount: A Restoration Perspective Audio
http://www.byub.org/Bethlehem/Audio/105.ram
> No more sick than your equating all religions to the same lowest common denominator.
And your “highest common denominator” being, naturally, your own viewpoint and ethic. This is what everyone should aspire to and seek to achieve, ay.
> The reason you are so mad is that I showed your convictions to be made of water.
I have never been diagnosed with being “mad” and I have never been convicted in any court, anywhere.
> You no more believe Islam is equivalent to other religions than I do, but in order to maintain your holier than thou status, you are willing to engage in cognitive dissidence.
In your case, you prefer to engage in cognitive flatulance: smelly, full of gas, obnoxious and rude. Best discharged in private in a well-ventilated area, and definitely not something to be announced to all and sundry.
> And of course I would not be entertained by your head being cut off
Bulldust! You offered my headless corpse $10,000 “just for the shear entertainment value.” We have it in writing, on this thread. So you are either a liar now, or you were a liar then. Either way, you are a Liar.
> You are just not brave enough to put your PC convictions to the test, so you become mad at me to hide your distress.
Liars have no legitimate right to question the bravery of any man. Or, for that matter, to throw around insults. Talk is cheap.
So, as a self-confessed Liar (by the words of your own mouth), by casting aspersions at my “bravery” are you actually calling me a Coward?
You have zero Credibility mate. None.
~”Finally, the Mormon’s believe in multiple Gods. This contradicts the entire Bible...”~
We do not. We believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. If there are others out there in the vastness of the cosmos, it doesn’t matter to us; such are not our Father, and so are not worshiped.
_________________________________________________________
Is Father, Jesus Christ and Holy Ghost 1 God? No, to the Mormon they are not 1 God but multiple Gods. So your statement that you do not believe in multiple Gods is something you know to be false. Further, those who have died can be Gods. Have there been no “Gods” (i.e. good Mormons) in all of Mormon history? If you believe there have been Mormons in the past that became Gods then you are not being honest in saying that you do not believe in multiple Gods. This is a central issue and I think it could be a salvation issue. The “God” you worship was created, not the creator of the Universe, not “God,” but a created being in your theology. This is not God.
http://www.boap.org/LDS/History/History_of_the_Church/Vol_VI
Do a find for: “Address of the Prophet—His Testimony Against the Dissenters at Nauvoo.”
I do not believe that you are unable to find your own Church writings, so you are simply trying to avoid grappling with the fact that Joseph Smith showed himself to be a liar.
You're thinking St. James was Jesus' biological half-brother, right? Wrong.
"Don’t say you weren’t warned, because you were." (St. Paul)
Disagreements among the Apostles was common. St. Paul would have done well to say only what our Lord told him and kept his own opinions to himself because personally, he was a jerk.
Maybe; but you still have your lispth!
But...
Was the data WRONG??
Indeed!!!
There's a LOT of this going on!!!
--MormonDude
18 My object in going to ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: “they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof.”20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself alying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, bmother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
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