Posted on 05/13/2007 6:15:45 PM PDT by Clemenza
Edited on 05/13/2007 6:29:30 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
Wednesday night on ABC-TV, two televangelists took on nonbelievers from the Rational Response Squad in a bid to prove the existence of God (see "Nightline Face Off" on ABCNews.com).
The TV polemics come in the wake of a rash of bestselling books by atheists challenging religion.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
That's merely your opinion. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
If God can always exist or come from nothing, why can’t the entire physical universe always exist or come from nothing?
You have a real apples to oranges problem in your question. The universe is a material, measurable, NATURAL phenomenon. Materialistic items existing in the observable dimensions of reality are at the mercy of physical laws. One of the biggies in physical laws is the law of causation.
Trying to apply those laws to the Supreme Being -- an (list your 'omnis' here) God breaks down and does'nt work. Theists do not and will not rank God with a natural, material phenomenon. A being that is beyond natural, completely apart from natural, "supernatural" if you will, does not answer to the mundane physical laws that govern waves, particles, and forces.
So to say that 'God always exists' is not on the same level as saying 'these particles have always existed' or 'this wave had no origin'. I hope that puts a little meat into the uncaused cause and the prime mover argument for you.
The presence of patterns and order in the universe does not necessitate the existence of a God...
...it does, however, necessitate the existence of some primary force, divine or not...unless one chooses to beleive that matter has always existed, in whatever state, ready at any time to form patterns and order out of its own boundless randomness...
It is the duty of all Christians to spread the Gospel so that others can be saved and not go to hell when they die. There are many who will not accept the free gift of salvation and be saved. And we as Christians have to accept that, instead of compromising our beliefes to get a large number of people in the Church.
...you label evangelicals as illogical, and many of them clearly might be so labelled...but that implies that your position vis a vis theirs is, a priori, logical...wfhat, in fact, is particularly logical about denying something’s existence merely because you haven’t sensed it...I haven’t sensed the existence of complex, even prehistoric lifeforms in the deepest ocean waters, or in the vast reaches of outer space, and I never shall...is it thus logical for me to declare it non-existant...
See there; you are NOT an atheist!
You believe THIS!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
An atheist is someone who does not believe in God, so how could you possibly conclude that believing the Bible is a collection of old folk tales precludes someone from being an atheist? It makes no sense.
While I've heard that line as a reason for Christians to not marry non-Christians, I've not heard it used as a reason to have nothing else to do with people who do not believe. I do appreciate your effort to get back to the original topic of this thread, instead of atheists and believers trying to proseletyze each other.
What should Christian believers do in regards to their atheist neighbors? What is wrong with them finding common ground as Americans (in the US, of course) who ratify the idea of religious freedom?
For openers, you might ask yourself where you might fit into this description, from William James (The Principles of Psychology, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1981, p. 21):
Is the Kosmos an expression of intelligence rational in its inward nature, or a brute external fact pure and simple? If we find ourselves, in contemplating it, unable to banish the impression that it is a realm of final purposes, that it exists for the sake of something, we place intelligence at the heart of it and have a religion. If, on the contrary, in surveying its irremediable flux, we can think of the present only as so much mere mechanical sprouting from the past, occurring with no refence to the future, we are atheists and materialists.Strikes me as a pretty good "self-test" of one's basic concept/inclination regarding the "Kosmos" and essential intellectual/spiritual posture toward it....
Additional light shed by James WRT the fundamental difference between inorganic and organic nature:
If some iron filings be sprinkled on a table and a magnet brought near them, they will fly through the air for a certain distance and stick to its surface. A savage seeing the phenomenon explains it as the result of the attraction of love between the magnet and the filings. But let a card cover the poles of the magnet, and the filings will press forever against its surface without its ever occurring to them to pass around its sides and thus come into more direct contact with the object of their love....If we now pass from such actions as these to those of living things, we notice a striking difference. Romeo wants Juliet as the filings want the magnet; and if no obstacles intervene he moves toward her by as straight a line as they. But Romeo and Juliet, if a wall be built between them, do not remain idiotically pressing their faces against its opposite sides like the magnet and the filings with the card. Romeo soon finds a circuitous way, by scaling the wall or otherwise, of reaching Juliet's lips directly. With the filings, the path is fixed; whether it reaches the end depends on accidents. With the lover it is the end that is fixed, the path may be modified indefinitely.... The pursuance of future ends and the choice of means for their attainment are thus the mark and criterion of the presence of mentality in a phenomenon.... no actions but such as are done for an end, and show a choice of means, can be called indubitable expressions of Mind. [Bold added]
If living beings are intelligent, then obviously intelligence is already in Nature; and Nature is knowable by man because it is lawful. The question then becomes: How did intelligence and laws get into the picture?
Thanks for the post, Clemenza!
I'm fascinated by the ludicrous..can you tell? LOL.
Referring to those that don't really believe they just think Church is a way to be seen as doing "good"for political or financial gain.
What is worse, to be a nonbeliever and take leave of the church or a false believer who wants to prop himself up? In most cases they aren't fooling anyone anyway and frightening more honest people away.
Read my entire post and ask a question if you like. Don’t take a snippet out of context and try to argue with it. That’s too much like a democrat or something.
As a point of fact, it seems that the natural universe may not be measurable or observable at the quantum level of modern physics.
I agree that there is no reason to require that God have a physical existance in order to believe. However my original objection is to the use of observable, physical things, no matter how complex or mysterious, as evidence of a supernatural creator. That objection seems to me to be strengthened if you put God outside of physical existance.
Nobody ever mentions what seems to me to be the strongest evidence for the existance of God, that simply being the fact that there is anything at all. A void is perfect and complete, why is it cluttered up with things? Somebody must have had an idea.
I still utterly reject the idea that any physical thing offers evidence of God. Explaining complexity by postulating greater complexity as a cause just will not fit into my mind.
Your basic assumption is wrong. Atheists don't deny that God exists, because it is logically impossible to prove a negative. An atheist can't prove that Dispater or Santa Claus don't exist, no one can. The logical burden of proof lies with those who claim that Allah exists. If I claim that a prehistoric lifeform exists in outer space, no one should believe me unless I can offer evidence of its existence.
It is up to those who believe in Allah, to prove his existence. The Christians (Allah Atheists) don't have any need to disprove the existence of Allah, because it is impossible to prove a negative.
Thank you for including me in your pings.
People will do stupid and wicked things for advantage. It is shameful, and a weakness and corruption entirely of mans. As a species, we are clever and social; moreso than any other. Both are evidenced in all we do; practiced every moment of our lives.
Kids behave so that Santa will come; boys act tough to impress their friends; (insert explanation of womens behavior here). Some pretend they are a photographer for Playboy magazine. And...to be sure, others don't really believe they just think Church is a way to be seen as doing "good"for political or financial gain.
So, what is worse? There is no difference....no comparison can be made. Wrong is in the act, not the location. If its wrong on one side of the street, its wrong on the other.
It is not wrong just because you're at church..or drive an SUV..smoke cigarettes..hunt quail..vote Republican..or just because you were born American.
Making no pretense of being good, does not mitigate the blame of doing bad.
Yeah and God created himself too. /s
BUMP
Very few people think things through to your conumdrum -- why does a perfect being create a universe at all?
You've boiled it down to it's essence.
Sometimes we have simply got to knock the dust from our feet and move on.
This:
NIV Matthew 10:7-15
7. As you go, preach this message: `The kingdom of heaven is near.'
8. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
9. Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts;
10. take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.
11. "Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave.
12. As you enter the home, give it your greeting.
13. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you.
14. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.
15. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
NIV Mark 6:7-12
7. Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits.
8. These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff--no bread, no bag, no money in your belts.
9. Wear sandals but not an extra tunic.
10. Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town.
11. And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."
12. They went out and preached that people should repent.
NIV Luke 9:1-5
1. When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases,
2. and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
3. He told them: "Take nothing for the journey--no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic.
4. Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town.
5. If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them."
NIV Luke 10:1-11
1. After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
2. He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.
3. Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.
4. Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.
5. "When you enter a house, first say, `Peace to this house.'
6. If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you.
7. Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
8. "When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you.
9. Heal the sick who are there and tell them, `The kingdom of God is near you.'
10. But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say,
11. `Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.'
NIV Acts 13:47-52
47. For this is what the Lord has commanded us: "`I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' "
48. When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
49. The word of the Lord spread through the whole region.
50. But the Jews incited the God-fearing women of high standing and the leading men of the city. They stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region.
51. So they shook the dust from their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium.
52. And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
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