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Christians and atheists start a calmer dialogue
Christian Science Monitor ^ | 05/13/07 | Jane Lampman

Posted on 05/13/2007 6:15:45 PM PDT by Clemenza

Edited on 05/13/2007 6:29:30 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]

Wednesday night on ABC-TV, two televangelists took on nonbelievers from the Rational Response Squad in a bid to prove the existence of God (see "Nightline Face Off" on ABCNews.com).

The TV polemics come in the wake of a rash of bestselling books by atheists challenging religion.


(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News
KEYWORDS: atheist; christianity; moralabsolutes
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To: Earthdweller; kinoxi
Theories can be tested: I can start with proposition p and perform a series of tests to attempt to falsify it. However, at some point up the chain I reach an end.

To kinoxi, your comment is easily sorted into the supposition of inevitable progress pile. The middle ages did not differ materially from our day in one very important sense: only the names of those in charge of the hegemony have changed. Astronomers once believed heavenly bodies resided in Ptolemaic spheres, that the sun revolved around the earth. Gallileo, as you know, was confined by the Roman Catholic Church to house arrest.

Today, little has changed - at least in regard to our origins. Alternative theories - like then - are not permitted and scientists who promote them are censured and ostracized. Free thought and inquiry using the scientific method - observability, measurability, repeatability - is not guiding dogma. No, dogma guides research; findings contrary to dogma are discarded - a perfect example being salt concentration in the Red Sea. The reason for this, I believe, is to reinforce a worldview preferable to the leading thinkers of the age. Most (i.e. the masses in the scientific community) go along for the ride, and many do not see the inconsistencies between any faith in a Creator and modern dogma - nor wish to because it is their livelihood on the line. Most are decent people, I would add, with no particular agenda other than performing a job - like geological research for oil companies, which does not require the underlying explanations of their field be true, only the end result.

So please, don't get smug about our supposed superiority to those in the Middle Ages. A little humility among today's clergy in modern university classrooms would go a very long way.

81 posted on 05/13/2007 11:28:41 PM PDT by Lexinom (http://www.gohunter08.com)
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To: Lexinom

That’s an interesting statement.


82 posted on 05/13/2007 11:32:50 PM PDT by kinoxi
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To: laotzu
Yes..on a very practical level, being morally responsible is rewarding in some respects. But there is more to it than just knowing that you are doing the right things in life.

Not speaking for those that use Christianity as a crutch of course. I can't stand the type and there are far too many of them.

83 posted on 05/13/2007 11:36:16 PM PDT by Earthdweller (All reality is based on faith in something.)
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Comment #84 Removed by Moderator

To: Lexinom
My thoughts to add to yours, follow the money....

Well, night all. The monumental questions of the universe will have to wait until tomorrow for me. Great discussion.

85 posted on 05/13/2007 11:50:15 PM PDT by Earthdweller (All reality is based on faith in something.)
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To: librlH8r; Clemenza
I write this as a friend: You nor I have no right to make such a statement about an individual. Only God knows the story of any individual person's life, because God has foreordained their end, and permits the desires of their heart which will be exercised through their free agency throughout that person's life to achieve His ultimate ends. Every life has purpose - even Esau, even Judas Iscariot.

Yes, one who does not have forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ will pay for those sins eternally, because the sins are committed against an infinite God. Either way, the sins are paid. But we cannot say Clemenza, or librlH84, or Lexinom is eternally damned because we cannot lay claim on future events that may change hearts. We can only affirm that those with, by God's grace alone, a true and living faith in Christ that guides their lives and frees them from the concupiscence of the natural heart is a true child of God, and will never perish.

In the spirit of II Corinthians 5 I would add that many who take the label "Christian" conduct their lives practically as though they were atheists. To my shame I am guilty of this at times, and I would venture that most of us are. Seeing this probably only adds to the agnostic's confusion. But even this is under Divine control. All those He will save He will provide the right circumstances to bring them into His heavenly fold.

Wishing you all a good evening.

86 posted on 05/14/2007 12:16:19 AM PDT by Lexinom (http://www.gohunter08.com)
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To: Earthdweller
those that use Christianity as a crutch

What do you see them using it as a crutch for?

87 posted on 05/14/2007 2:50:16 AM PDT by laotzu
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To: Clemenza
Christians and atheists start a calmer dialogue

WHY?

Why would we waste our time?


NIV 2 Corinthians 6:14-15
14. Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
15. What harmony is there between Christ and Belial ? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?

88 posted on 05/14/2007 6:00:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Clemenza
OK, but what about us agnostics? ;-)

Oh... I don't know....

89 posted on 05/14/2007 6:00:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: AlaskaErik
That's just a collection of old folk tales passed down through the centuries.

See there; you are NOT an atheist!

You believe THIS!

90 posted on 05/14/2007 6:02:45 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: tickmeister
Don’t give me the line about he just always existed.

Why not?

Do you have some kind of proof to show this is not true?

91 posted on 05/14/2007 6:04:25 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Lexinom
Frankly as a believer I don’t hold it against you if you look at much of what passes for Christendom in America today and shake your head.

Amen!


92 posted on 05/14/2007 6:06:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Lexinom
Frankly as a believer I don’t hold it against you if you look at much of what passes for Christendom in America today and shake your head.

Amen!


93 posted on 05/14/2007 6:09:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: librlH8r
you will end up in hell.

See tagline...

94 posted on 05/14/2007 6:12:21 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Lexinom
... because God has foreordained their end...

Then just WHY are all of us just wasting our time on this thread?

95 posted on 05/14/2007 6:13:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: LiteKeeper
I wonder if Jesus cried when you wrote that....
96 posted on 05/14/2007 6:30:16 AM PDT by jettester (I got paid to break 'em - not fly 'em)
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To: jettester
I wonder if Jesus cried when you wrote that....

Why?

97 posted on 05/14/2007 7:25:12 AM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: AlaskaErik
What evidence is that?

*************

Everything we see, touch and hear. It is all around us.

98 posted on 05/14/2007 7:31:03 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: kinoxi
Why are you doing battle with religious fundamentalists?

I used to be a Mormon (and most of my family and friends still are) and it makes me angry when I see all the anti-Mormon (A vote for Mitt Romney is a vote for Satan) threads. So when the long knives come out, I endeavor to show them the error of their ways. Most of the time the thread ends with them cursing me ^^ They don't seem to have any scripts for how to deal with an atheist defending Mormonism. Generally it is fun but it gets tiresome when they can't seem to defend themselves or at least come up with some original material to argue about.

99 posted on 05/14/2007 7:36:20 AM PDT by LeGrande (Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe in the same God of Abraham.)
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To: elkfersupper
Perhaps their chosen discipline demands both logic and rationality.

What else would you like to teach me about my profession? Could it be that logic and rationality are not aligned with your cynicism? Newton and Maxwell think so. -Christian physicist
100 posted on 05/14/2007 7:41:24 AM PDT by newguy357
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