Posted on 11/16/2006 5:33:58 AM PST by Mr. Brightside
WASHINGTON -- Like many fellow Democratic politicians, Sen. Barack Obama is no stranger to the pulpit.
But in December, Obama will go where few progressive Democrats usually venture--to a large, conservative evangelical church that boasts a Sunday attendance of more than 20,000 people.
Even more unusual is that he'll attend at the invitation of megachurch Pastor Rick Warren, evangelical icon and author of the popular Christian book "The Purpose-Driven Life."
Aides to Obama say he will appear at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., on Dec. 1, World AIDS Day.
"Sen. Obama has a deep respect for Mr. Warren's commitment to fighting AIDS and poverty," said Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor.
While he was working on his latest book, "The Audacity of Hope," Obama asked Warren to help by reading one of his draft chapters. Warren issued the invitation to Obama to speak at the church next month.
The messages that Friday will focus on AIDS and HIV, a key area of ministry for Saddleback Church. While many conservative Christians have shied away from AIDS because of their discomfort with its connections to premarital sex and homosexuality, Warren and his wife, church co-founder Kay Warren, have been vocal advocates for patients living with the disease.
Shortly before the release of his latest book, Obama issued a call to progressives to shed bias against religious people and to recognize "overlapping values."
(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...
At least it serves a "purpose".
Which one of the items that I listed does not qualify as a specific for you?
What you've provided is either guilt by association or it's not specific.
Greetings old FRiend.
i believe that the scriptures admonish us to:
With this particular guidance, i find it somewhat distressing that you appear [giving you the benefit of doubt] to have not critically examined Warren's works in light of Scripture. None the less, in answer to your querry, i provide the following examination of Warren's work, The Purpose Driven Life. http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/read_articles.asp?id=1
Let us know what you think of this evaluation. i believe that you will find it to be quite balanced.
All megachurches are liberal.
Thank you, CDL. I wanted to let you know that I received your post and will be responding later. If I do not respond today then please remind me tomorrow.
Desperately trying to turn Orange Country into Democratic territory???
"I-chabod."
"The Glory of the LORD has departed."
Very succinct description of most of the modern church, sadly.
Yeah, right.
Needless use of jargon. A lot of it is denomination - or group - specific. For example, a certain parachurch ministry I am familiar with would invariably slip into Evangelical jargon. For example, "Jesus in your heart." Another example would be the buzzwords used within my former denomination ("New Testament Principles" - i.e., those church structure practices we like to emphasize).
And do you agree with the biblical position of Christ's death on the cross as penal substitutionary atonement (He paid the price for our sins)?
With a key caveat, absolutely. The Penal Substitutionary system is a model designed to explain a "spiritual" or Biblical phenomena. Take a Chemistry example. Remember the "solar-system" models of the atom? They were good for explaining atoms to little kids - but they were an explanation, not the reality. In college, you learn about orbitals, and get these odd shapes around which electrons tend to be located - but, while these orbitals were a more precise model, it still could not be confused for the reality.
The penal substitutionary model of the atonement - that Christ , in a legal sense, paid the price for our sins is a model which the Bible uses to explain the means by which God makes sinners righteous because of the death of His Son. That is, still, a model used for illustration. The reality - that Christ died in the place of sinners - is far more inexpressible than a simple illustration.
(This approach, incidentally, is plagarized from C.S. Lewis. Sharp guy, that C.S. Lewis.)
Does the emergent church that you know of agree with it?
Absolutely.
All emergent-types that I have read and encountered promote re-defining all historical biblical doctrines, including: salvation, sin, atonement, repentance, holiness, separation, and etc
As I have said before, I have limited exposure to the Emergent movement, and from what I've seen, I can understand some of where the Emergent church is coming from. There's a lot of people who had bad experiences with the Church who benefit from an Emergent-style message. The only Emergent church with which I am at all familiar has made it their mission to reach out to people who have had bad experiences with other churches, and try to bring them back into historic Christianity.
Does the emergent church that you are familiar with promote contemplative prayer and other Catholic, mystical practices?
These sound like buzzwords. I will say this - if you are going to slam something as "Catholic," I am not biting. That's not necessarily a bad thing. As regards mysticism, well, I don't think the church is. One of my friends involved in the group is decidedly more mystical than I - the source of many intriguing discussions.
Oh Geeze.
What is the emergent movement????
"And Internet scuttlebutt is that after Adrian's death his church is going "purpose driven"."
It's true! Not rumor.
Poor Adrian Rogers ... a first class Christian if there ever was one in modern times. Love the guy!
Romans 16:17: "I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them."
The Christian is directed to stay away from false teachers and their teaching for the following reasons:
1. To maintain the doctrinal integrity of the church (1 Tim. 2:6)
2. To protect the sheep from error which inhibits spiritual growth (Acts 20:28; 2 Peter 2:1-2).
Why does Warren not stay away from them (and why don't you have a problem with it)?
Specific #1 - Warren's Christless teaching to Synagogue 3000: This specific is documented by Spero News, Synagogue 3000 aims to increase Jewish Worshippers, Tuesday, October 04, 2005 (video of Warren at Synagogue 3000 can be seen on their website...go to it and see for yourself) - he apologizes for referencing the New Testament).
The headline reads, "Evangelical Christian Rick Warren, and mega-church pastor, advized Synagogue 3000, an umbrella Jewish organization pushing for synagogue transformation"
The article was posted on FreeRepublic as well (go there and see it for yourself).
Specific #2 - Warren's association with Cho, and Cho's occultic Fourth Dimension: This specific is documented by www.pastors.com, Rick Warren's Ministry Toolbox, July 25, 2001, Issue #17, Will The Next Generation Church Be On The Internet?, by Rick Warren.
It reads: "A few weeks ago, I had breakfast with David Yonggi Cho..."
Find it and read it for yourself (www.pastors.com/RWMT/printerfriendly.asp?id=17&artid=537&expand=1). Warren says that he has read Cho's book on miracles (The Fourth Dimension) and asks Cho how American Pastors could be more open to miracles. Warren also asks Cho to pray for American pastors.
Specific #3 - Warren's propensity to proof-text and twist/distort Scripture (take a look at the use of the Message paraphrase, John 4, in the PDL): This specific is documented endlessly, but more specifically see www.pastors.com, Issue #71, October 9, 2002, Purpose Driven Life: Worship that pleases God, by Rick Warren.(also p. 103, The Purpose Driven Life)
It reads: "God wants you to be yourself in worship. "That's the kind of people the Father is looking out for; those who are simply and honestly themselves before him in their worship ." (John 4:23, The Message)
In contrast to Warren and The Message, this verse in Scripture reads, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the worshippers that the Father seeks." (John 4:23, NIV)
As you can see, there is a vast difference and Warren distorts the passage with his quotation of The Message.
But...It gets worse! He quotes Gary Thomas, who uses Carl Jung psychology (Sacred Pathways, by Gary Thomas, pp. 22-29 - Carl Jung says that a demon spirit guide revealed, to him, the pyschological principles that he espoused), to identify nine of the ways people draw near to God..."
It is all documented...Check out the specifics for yourself.
Specific #4 - Warren's PDC directs to find the key to people's hearts, and their felt needs, to win them: This specific is documented in The Purpose Driven Church, by Rick Warren, p. 219.
It reads: "It is my deep conviction that anybody can be won to Christ if you discover the key to his or her heart...The most likely place is to start with the person's felt needs."
Specific #5 - Warren's disdain for the fundamentalist: This specific is documented via Larry KIng Live transcript in an interview with Rick Warren and Rick Warren's panel discussion at The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life (www.pewforum.org/events/print.php?eventID=80).
"Now the word "fundamentalist" actually comes from a document in the 1920's called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity." (Rick Warren, The Pew Forum, Myths of the Modern Mega-Church)
"There are all kinds of fundamentalists, Larry, and they are all based on fear. There are Christian fundamentalists. There are Muslim..." (Rick Warren, Larry King Live)
These are all documented specifics, as requested. Ignore them, if you so desire...But don't say nobody ever gave them to you.
Why is it your former denomination?
What specifically were those church structure practices we like to emphasize?
And where are you attending/serving on a regular basis, now, as a member?
"It is a model..."
No, it is not. It is a biblical reality.
Isaiah 53:5 - "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed."
2 Corinthians 5:21 - "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
I Peter 2:24 - "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.
Many emergents decry substitutionary atonement as cosmic child abuse and a vile doctrine.
And you never answered the question...What are the legitimate concerns (as you stated) of the emergent folks?
It can't be that they don't use jargon because what they teach, and the language they use, is a hundred times more confusing!
I will leave the slamming of all things Catholic up to the reformers...They did a great job and many paid with a great price (many with their lives).
It is main stream emergent to incorporate unbiblical, mystical practices (contemplative prayer, yoga, centering prayer, breath prayer, labyrinth, spiritual guides, transcendental meditation, and etc.) Mysticism, and these practices, are decidedly anti-biblical. Christians experience, and gain knowledge of, God through His Word not through the experiences of true self via a divine center in some eastern religious practice.
All emergent churches define themselves as "missional". It's just the mission, with their message, that they are on that is the problem (a mission of rebellion).
Take your time.
Why start now? ;-) Thanks, there is a lot there.
But is there not guilt by association according to Scripture?
No... while I understand what you're saying, it's a logical fallacy.
Is your church AOK with abortion?
Those citations prove a substitutionary atonement. They do not necessarily prove a penal atonement. That is a model - albeit a useful one.
Many emergents decry substitutionary atonement as cosmic child abuse and a vile doctrine.
I wouldn't know anything about that - nor have I claimed to.
It can't be that they don't use jargon because what they teach, and the language they use, is a hundred times more confusing!
Broad brush? The other problems I've seen are petty, narrow-minded bigotry and ignorance.
I will leave the slamming of all things Catholic up to the reformers...They did a great job and many paid with a great price (many with their lives).
I won't tolerate slamming Catholics in my presence.
All emergent churches define themselves as "missional". It's just the mission, with their message, that they are on that is the problem (a mission of rebellion).
More broad-brushed condemnations?
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