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To: freedumb2003

There are countless examples in the world around us of order and complexity that are known to have their origin as a result of intelligence. Give me one example where order and complexity are known to arise from a non intelligent cause, without assuming the conclusion, that the universe came into existence with out intelligence, and you would have a point.


23 posted on 09/11/2006 3:08:22 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Order and complexity arise naturally (no deity or ID needed). I will post more later when I have more time.


25 posted on 09/11/2006 3:11:00 PM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: metmom
Give me one example where order and complexity are known to arise from a non intelligent cause

Snowflakes.

33 posted on 09/11/2006 3:34:18 PM PDT by ThinkDifferent
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To: metmom
Give me one example where order and complexity are known to arise from a non intelligent cause,


38 posted on 09/11/2006 3:39:06 PM PDT by blowfish
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To: metmom; RadioAstronomer; ThinkDifferent; blowfish; Dimensio; ml1954; js1138
Give me one example where order and complexity are known to arise from a non intelligent cause

I can give you more than one:

The Origins of Order: Self Organization and Selection in Evolution. By Stuart Kauffman, S. A. (1993) Oxford University Press, NY, ISBN: 0195079515.

Compositional genomes: Prebiotic information transfer in mutually catalytic noncovalent assemblies

Eigen M, and Schuster P, The hypercycle. A principle of natural self-organization. Springer-Verlag, isbn 3-540-09293, 1979

The origin of genetic information: viruses as models

Compositional genomes: prebiotic information transfer in mutually catalytic noncovalent assemblies

Stadler PF, Dynamics of autocatalytic reaction networks. IV: Inhomogeneous replicator networks. Biosystems, 26: 1-19, 1991

Lee DH, Severin K, and Ghadri MR. Autocatalytic networks: the transition from molecular self-replication to molecular ecosystems. Curr Opinion Chem Biol, 1, 491-496, 1997

Lee DH, Severin K, Yokobayashi Y, and Ghadiri MR, Emergence of symbiosis in peptide self-replication through a hypercyclic network. Nature, 390: 591-4, 1997

Apolipoprotein AI Mutations and Information

Creationist Claim CB102: Mutations are random noise; they do not add information.

Multiple Duplications of Yeast Hexose Transport Genes in Response to Selection in a Glucose-Limited Environment

Evolution of biological information

Evolution of biological complexity

Evolution and Information: The Nylon Bug

Genetic Algorithms and Evolutionary Computation

Examples of Beneficial Mutations and Natural Selection

The evolution of trichromatic color vision by opsin gene duplication in New World and Old World primates

Gene duplications in evolution of archaeal family B DNA polymerases

Koch, AL: Evolution of antibiotic resistance gene function. Microbiol Rev 1981, 45:355378.

Selection in the evolution of gene duplications

Velkov, VV: Gene amplification in prokaryotic and eukaryotic systems. Genetika 1982, 18:529543.

Romero, D & Palacios, R: Gene amplification and genomic plasticity in prokaryotes. Annu Rev Genet 1997, 31:91111.

Stark, GR & Wahl, GM: Gene amplification. Annu Rev Biochem 1984, 53:447491.

Reinbothe, S, Ortel, B, & Parthier, B: Overproduction by gene amplification of the multifunctional arom protein confers glyphosate tolerance to a plastid-free mutant of Euglena gracilis. Mol Gen Genet 1993, 239:416424.

Gottesman, MM, Hrycyna, CA, Schoenlein, PV, Germann, UA, & Pastan, I: Genetic analysis of the multidrug transporter. Annu Rev Genet 1995, 29:607649.

Schwab, M: Oncogene amplification in solid tumors. Semin Cancer Biol 1999, 9:319325.

Widholm, JM, Chinnala, AR, Ryu, JH, Song, HS, Eggett, T, & Brotherton, JE: Glyphosate selection of gene amplification in suspension cultures of three plant species. Physiol Plant 2001, 112:540545.

Otto, E, Young, JE, & Maroni, G: Structure and expression of a tandem duplication of the Drosophila metallothionein gene. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1986, 83:60256029.

Maroni, G, Wise, J, Young, JE, & Otto, E: Metallothionein gene duplications and metal tolerance in natural populations of Drosophila melanogaster. Genetics 1987, 117:739744.

Kondratyeva, TF, Muntyan, LN, & Karvaiko, GI: Zinc-resistant and arsenic-resistant strains of Thiobacillus ferrooxidans have increased copy numbers of chromosomal resistance genes. Microbiology 1995, 141:11571162.

Tohoyama, H, Shiraishi, E, Amano, S, Inouhe, M, Joho, M, & Murayama, T: Amplification of a gene for metallothionein by tandem repeat in a strain of cadmium-resistant yeast cells. FEMS Microbiol Lett 1996, 136:269273.

Sonti, RV & Roth, JR: Role of gene duplications in the adaptation of Salmonella typhimurium to growth on limiting carbon sources. Genetics 1989, 123:1928.

Brown, CJ, Todd, KM, & Rosenzweig, RF: Multiple duplications of yeast hexose transport genes in response to selection in a glucose-limited environment. Mol Biol Evol 1998, 15:931942.

Hastings, PJ, Bull, HJ, Klump, JR, & Rosenberg, SM: Adaptive amplification: an inducible chromosomal instability mechanism. Cell 2000, 103:723731.

Tabashnik, BE: Implications of gene amplification for evolution and management of insecticide resistance. J Econ Entomol 1990, 83:11701176.

Lenormand, T, Guillemaud, T, Bourguet, D, & Raymond, M: Appearance and sweep of a gene duplication: adaptive response and potential for new functions in the mosquito Culex pipiens. Evolution 1998, 52:17051712.

Guillemaud, T, Raymond, M, Tsagkarakou, A, Bernard, C, Rochard, P, & Pasteur, N: Quantitative variation and selection of esterase gene amplification in Culex pipiens. Heredity 1999, 83:8799.

How many more would you like?
48 posted on 09/11/2006 4:47:00 PM PDT by Ichneumon (Ignorance is curable, but the afflicted has to want to be cured.)
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To: metmom
Give me one example where order and complexity are known to arise from a non intelligent cause

Human beings.

69 posted on 09/11/2006 6:01:27 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (the war on poverty should include health club memberships for the morbidly poor)
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To: metmom
Give me one example where order and complexity are known to arise from a non intelligent cause, without assuming the conclusion, that the universe came into existence with out intelligence, and you would have a point.

The Mandelbrot Set is infinitely complex and shows both explicit order (in the form of infinitely repeated structures) and implicit order (it is a map of all possible Julia Sets, each of which is possesses a high degree of symmetry or antisymmetry). It is generated from a single, simple rule, and as its structure depends only on the properties of complex numbers, it does not even presuppose the existence of any particular universe.

If you're going to insist that even math itself is "designed", then I aver that your theology has evaporated into the meaningless aether.

82 posted on 09/11/2006 7:54:51 PM PDT by Physicist
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To: metmom

[Give me one example where order and complexity are known to arise from a non intelligent cause]




Water condenses from clouds turning to snow on its way to the ground and the water molecules organize themselves into the complex structures of ice crystals, which seem simple enough from some vantage points but which are far more complex than can be readily comprehended from others. Yet definite patterns are present and are even predictable to a certain extent. Such "phase transitions", where order and layers of complexity are created from simplicity and randomness, are incredibly common in nature.


It's plausible that God intervenes in this process to purposefully guide every intricate detail of snowflake production to His exact tastes, but to accept that idea violates the scientific principle of parsimony, though not the religious principle of faith.


85 posted on 09/11/2006 8:43:38 PM PDT by spinestein (Follow The Brazen Rule!)
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To: metmom
Give me one example where order and complexity are known to arise from a non intelligent cause

The Democratic National Convention?

135 posted on 09/12/2006 8:12:04 AM PDT by Right Brother
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