Families Challenging Religious Influence in Delaware Schools

New York Times ^ | NEELA BANERJEE

[DIM1]

A dispute in Georgetown, Del., underscores the rising tensions over religion in public schools.

I spend a fair amount of time trying to convince other religious Jews that their concerns about Evangelical Christians are baseless, and that they should cooperate with them on common objectives such as preserving Israel, protecting religious freedom, social issues etc. The incidents described in this story is exactly the kind of thing they many of them are afraid of. And, that does not include the prayers per se, but the ridicule, and exclusionary nature of some of the prayers. What do my fellow conservatives advise I tell them about this incident?

Thank you and G-d bless you,

DIM1

[Hound of the Baskervilles]

'Apparently the citizens who agreed to live under the Constitution in the first place thought there should be prayer in the schools where they sent their children. They did not consider this to be a violation of the first amendment or they would never have agreed to live under that in the first place."

Back in the good old days the ONLY prayer in schools was Christian prayer. It was just a given that Christians got to pray. Minority religions were ignored and forced to listen to Christian prayer. That is not right. That is the very definition of Christian privilege. That is not America.

If there is to be prayer in schools then Wiccans should be able to thank the earth mother, and the Krishna's should be able to beat their drums and chant. But we know that would be crazy and schools would be battlegrounds for who gets to say what prayers when, how and where. That is why there should b e no prayer of any kind in schools while school is in session or at any school sponsored function. Students of any denomination should be permitted to gather and pray out side the school before classes start or to pray QUIETLY over their noon meal.

And of course any student can always say a prayer internally within their own heart and no one will know. You can pray allowed in your own home, your church ,at family gatherings. You can pray internally while walking down the street, at work and at the park.

A lot of the carping by Christians today is really about loss of Christian hegemony and privledge which we should not have had in the first place.

[wintertime]

And you know too there is just a difference in what people are used to. There are different religious sensibilities. Even between Christians there are different styles of worship and different ways of experiencing.

Very good point!

Even if a government school district were as small as suburban subdivision block, there is no possible way that even those few families could agree on important religious expression issues in the government school.

No matter what the government school did ( even tiny ones) it would be establishing the religious worldview of some while actively undermining the religious beliefs of others.

Then their are the free speech, press, and assembly issues. Once inside a government school the government DOES demand restriction on these First Amendment rights. If the child or parent exercises their First Amendment Rights the child or parent is punished. At times even armed police are empolyed.

The is only one solution to this dilemma: Begin the process of privatizing universal K-12 education.

[wintertime]

That is why there should b e no prayer of any kind in schools while school is in session or at any school sponsored function. Students of any denomination should be permitted to gather and pray out side the school before classes start or to pray QUIETLY over their noon meal. ( Hound of the Baskervilles)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hound,

Please think about this. Do our federal and state constitutions say that we have free speech except that we must pray quietly, or only silently over our noon meal?

No!....We have the fundamental human right to free speech and government schools are the opposite to free speech. They forcibly institutionalize children in their centers 180 days a year for most of their waking day and tell them to shut up!

You say "That is why there should b e no prayer of any kind in schools while school is in session or at any school sponsored function."

Sorry, but forbidding pray of any kind is NOT religiously neutral. It is teaching children that religion is shameful and must be hidden like a bathroom activity.

Forbidding religious expression is government sponsored Secular Humanism. It is also a violation of our state and federal constitutions that protect free exercise of religion, free speech, and free assemble.

If the states call for both First Amendment Rights and Government schools then their is internal conflict within their documents and one or the other should be struck from the document.

[wintertime]

Dave please read posts" #23,#22,#21.

You are absolutely right. All of the topics you mentioned either establish or undermine the religious beliefs of some of the children in the school. There is no way to approach any of it in a religiously neutral manner.


And,,,,there are thousands of issues that can not be dealt with equitably by the government in its COMPULSORY, forced attendance, police threat schools. ( real bullets in those guns on the hip)

[Hound of the Baskervilles]

"Sorry, but forbidding pray of any kind is NOT religiously neutral. It is teaching children that religion is shameful and must be hidden like a bathroom activity."

Fine. The next time some graduate makes a commencement speech expressing her love for Wicca and thanking the earth mother and the gods of fertility or how bout this..."I just want to thank Jesus for her help, she has been like a mother to me." Any crazy thing can be said you know... I will cover my ears waiting for the howls of protest from Christians. The fact is Christians who want prayer in schools only really want Christian prayer and a return to the good old days of Christian dominance. That would be best but it is not fair. And frankly I would be very upset to have to sit through some weird prayer to the gods of Wicca in order to see my child graduate.

If we must have public school and prayer in public then all Christian denominations and non Christian religions should get equal recognition and that is impossible le. It would be nothing but a battleground for whose religion gets heard the most.

[Hound of the Baskervilles]

"Yes...The sooner we God out of public view we can replace him with Hiltery.The most offensive words on the planet: GOD and JESUS. Think about it" Swell huh??

[wintertime]

Fine. The next time some graduate makes a commencement speech expressing her love for Wicca and thanking the earth mother and the gods of fertility or how bout this..."I just want to thank Jesus for her help, she has been like a mother to me." Any crazy thing can be said you know... I will cover my ears waiting for the howls of protest from Christians.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^6

The solution is to begin the process of privatizing universal K-12 education.

Why?

Because any government school powerful enough to impose Christian prayer is powerful enough to impose Wiccan prayer or even abolish pray completely.

[Hound of the Baskervilles]

Post 26 is messed up. Please igonre it my computer is acting funny. :O>

[OriginalIntent]

You are stating your opinion and it is just that. You are not stating the intent if the first amendment. The first amendment was given and ratified by people who did not intend for it to be used to artificially create godless schools in opposition to the parents whose children go to those schools.

Once again, you have an opinion and one vote, exactly one vote in fact.

[an amused spectator]

So you're one of these "Tyranny of the Anecdoters" with whom a heart-wrenching story about "religious oppression" outweighs the fact that we're in a World War with a pitiless gutter religion which would like to eliminate or enslave ALL the other religions by treachery and the sword.

I'll try to work up some concern if I get a minute or two next year...

[Hound of the Baskervilles]

"Because any government school powerful enough to impose Christian prayer is powerful enough to impose Wiccan prayer or even abolish pray completely."

You are exactly correct. You said in one sentence what took me 50 sentences. My posts are always so wordy. :O>

[Hound of the Baskervilles]

"You are stating your opinion and it is just that."

True. But it is the correct opinion. (Kidding)

[Hound of the Baskervilles]

"The is only one solution to this dilemma: Begin the process of privatizing universal K-12 education."

Very good idea. The perfect solution but neither side really wants it. Why? Because what both sides really want is for OTHER people's kids to believe what they want their OWN kids to believe. Liberals want Christian kids to be taught that homosexuality is normal. Christians want liberals kids to be taught that it is wrong. The solution for both sides is to teach your own kids your values and hope for the best. But that's hard work and who has time? Let the schools do it.

[OriginalIntent]

Liberals want Christian kids to be taught that homosexuality is normal. Christians want liberals kids to be taught that it is wrong.

There is one big difference. The entire history of the United States agrees with the parents who oppose the legitimization of homosexuality.

It is the left who has done an end run around the Constitution by using activist judges to force the left's view into the Public Schools. There was no vote taken, the parents wishes were ignored. It is the left who has used the Public Schools as a way to indoctrinate children into a worldview in opposition to the overwhelming majority of parents.

You will also find that this is why the left fights so hard to oppose any move to defund Big Government Schooling and begin the process of privitization.

Because liberals know very well that the Public School System has (by liberal judicial activism) become the left's only hope of undermining what most children are taught at home and at church, they use every tactic available to keep that control from parents and communities. This is also why the left-wing press so strongly opposes privatization and home-schooling.

[metmom]

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Seems that too many people either never heard of the second part of just ignore it. It's as important as the first. Prohibiting prayer in school is *prohibiting the FREE exercise thereof*. If it's not free everywhere, it's not free.

[Tired of Taxes]

Absolutely. My neice's graduation was like Sunday service complete with gospel singing. It's common for a pastor to stand in front of a public ceremony and say a prayer. I've never heard about a Catholic priest or bishop (or a rabbi) standing in front of a public school graduation giving his blessing. If it happens, maybe I just miss it in the news. But I can't imagine the Protestant Christians I know going for that. LOL. I've heard them refer to the Catholic Church as a "cult". I also remember how, when I was a youngster, the Protestant kids (and adults) would poke fun at us for making the sign of the cross. And a minister once said to me, "You're Catholic? Well, you're young, there's still time." LOL.

[Tired of Taxes]

If that story linked in post 10 is entirely accurate, then the family has a valid complaint.

[DIM1]

Dear Alpine West,

Neither Prayer-in-schools - on it own - nor one-nation-under-G-d are even remotely what this controversy is about as far as I'm concerned. As stated in my intro: "that does not include the prayers per se, but the ridicule, and exclusionary nature of some of the prayers." Might you have then something constructive to say about those matters?

Thank you,

DIM1

[DIM1]

Dear jwalburg,

I sympathize with both your concerns about what your kids are exposed to and the views you expressed. And, Suspect that most Religious Jews would as well (which is why so many send their kids to private religious schools). What then might you think to be fair ways to deal with the circumstance described in my post?

Thank you!

DIM1

[wintertime]

Seems that too many people either never heard of the second part of just ignore it. It's as important as the first. Prohibiting prayer in school is *prohibiting the FREE exercise thereof*. If it's not free everywhere, it's not free.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Not only do government schools violate free exercise of religion, they can not be and never were religiously neutral. No matter what government schools do they will establish the religion of some and undermine the religion of others.