First pictures of stricken IDF Navy, Saar 5 vessel, hit by Iranian missile

photobucket.com ^ | July 15, 2006 | Jeff Head

[Jeff Head]

Here are the first pictures I am aware of of the damaghed IDF Naval vessel, the Saar 5. Fron these pictures, it is clear that the ship was hit at an angle that would have allowed the CIWS to engage if it was active. I am now leaning towards the systems not being engaged at the time of attack.

IMHO, if true, as some reports have indicated today (buit that I did not want to believe), it would be a fatal and inexcusable mistake in the environment the vessel found itself in...defending other IDF gunboats against air attack during shore bombardment.

Please see the following FR thread for much more discussion and assessment:

Initial assessment of C-802 missile engagment against IDF Saar 5

[Doohickey]

Isreal's Navy will be fine. This is what happens to any military when you've been under liberal leadership for a few years. Budgets get cut and training is the first thing that starts getting hit - it's expensive to make training realistic because you have to use real equipment on real targets and use real munitions to take them out.

[Jeff Head]

These pics just do not show enough damage t me. I am beginning to wonder about them.

... and the more I look at those pics, the more I wonder if they are indeed pics of the ship after it was hit or not.

Notice the marks next to the small hole just forward of the helo deck which we think or thought is damage form the hit. That hole looks exactly the same size as the discharge hole forward of it at the water-line, making me think maybe that is a discharge hole with some staining, and not a damage hole at all.

Now, maybe the staining came from internal fires and maybe, in the first pic there is evidence of a hit on the helo deck. But not much, and it just makes me wonder if those pics are indeed strike pics or not. I guess we shall see.

Even if just the missile hit and the warhead did not detonate, I would expect much more evident damage. And, if was a near miss and still mission killed the ship and killed four sailors, I would still expect to see more damage.

What do you guys think?

[Doohickey]

"Pop-up" flight profiles have been rendered pretty much obsolete by modern anti-missile systems. The game is played too fast nowadays to give the bad guys an extra few seconds to shoot you down.

[Oztrich Boy]

Not to mention the fact that the ship can't maneouver while towing a shield of 3" thick steel plates 150' on either side of the ship.

Why not make the stell plates integral with the sides and deck of the ship?:^)

[Jeff Head]

IOW, why not build an Iowa class battleship or something similar because that's about what ot wopuld take to deal with the displacement and weight.

[csvset]

Source

Not the best view, but it shows the ports, one w/soot.

[SampleMan]

Well, what do we really know?

At this point we know a missile was fired. The ship sustained some damage (at least a temporary mission kill), and four sailors appear to be dead.

So what happened? In all likelihood, this ship did not sustain a serious hit. I say this because of the low loss of life and no serious fire damage. Even a dud would produce more if it entered the superstructure.

A substantial blow to the hull (hammer blow or explosive) can lead to a mission kill. Electronic systems get knocked offline.

If the hit was in the stern, it may have detonated external after a glancing blow. The bow or stern are least sensitive areas of even a small ship. Or if oblique enough for a CIWS engagement, the missile may have detonated close in, or come apart and hit the ship as a grab bag of components.

A ship of this size does not take an ASCM into its bowels and return under its own power.

So I postulate that the missile did not penetrate the main structure of the ship.

[Doohickey]

Thanks! I don't doubt that the hole is a diesel exhaust. I wanted to get a look at what the helo deck was supposed to look like.

Jeff, compare the hangar on this hull to the one in your pics.

[SampleMan]

Well, what do we really know?

At this point we know a missile was fired. The ship sustained some damage (at least a temporary mission kill), and four sailors appear to be dead.

So what happened? In all likelihood, this ship did not sustain a serious hit. I say this because of the low loss of life and no serious fire damage. Even a dud would produce more if it entered the superstructure.

A substantial blow to the hull (hammer blow or explosive) can lead to a mission kill. Electronic systems get knocked offline.

If the hit was in the stern, it may have detonated external after a glancing blow. The bow or stern are least sensitive areas of even a small ship. Or if oblique enough for a CIWS engagement, the missile may have detonated close in, or come apart and hit the ship as a grab bag of components.

A ship of this size does not take an ASCM into its bowels and return under its own power.

So I postulate that the missile did not penetrate the main structure of the ship.

[Jeff Head]

Reports said it was towed back to Haifa and was still smoldering when it got there. I think these pictures are not strike pictures at all. If I can confim this, I will ask the mods to remove the thread...although, perhaps not because there ahs been some really good discussion on this thread. Maybe retitle it accordingly.

[Klutz Dohanger]

What do we know?

We now know that the Iranians are in Lebanon, and they're willing to bring their toys along with them.

[Jeff Head]

I am becoing more and more certain that these pics are not post-hit pics of the Saar 5 that was attacked at all.

[Jeff Head]

Yes...exactly. We do KNOW this. And we know the IDF is doing something about it.

[Oztrich Boy]

Ever thought about 2 vertical planar surfaces, one on each pontoon of the catamaran?

Except at 400 tons each, an catamatan won't have enough bouyancy, it needs to be a displacemet hull.
Then there is the propulsion system to get it up to 28 knots to match the missile ship

We are now talking 4000 tins, 40000 SHP - a significant target in this own right - better give it 6" guns to defent itself.

[delacoert]

I am becoing more and more certain that these pics are not post-hit pics of the Saar 5 that was attacked at all.

<nod>

[justa-hairyape]

The pictures show very little damage and those do appear to be ports. From another report, one of the sailors said they had just sat down for dinner and they heard a thud. No sirens or warnings. Either had radar off or it was a very 'stealthy' attack. Perhaps came in over or around the helo and slammed into the back end of the superstructure or came down on the upper part of the helo deck. Hard to see that in the image. Soot could have been from the fires.

[cva66snipe]

I took a link to a web site that described the ship, ably provided by a brilliant FREEPER. It is equipped with two cruising diesels that can propel the ship slightly above 20 knots. The main engine is a gas turbine that makes 30,000 Hp. So I originally thought the sooty port at the stern was the impact point however it's possible that it is the starboard diesel exhaust. Need more info.

The Heat Exchanger {Radiator} {engine coolant} would be salt water. I wasn't an Engineman but I think Diesel Engines exhaust vent through a stack. It's still some intense exhaust heat to expel. The heat exchanger discharge line could have ruptured causing flooding or the hit could have taken out the fire main loop aft. If that were the case the flooding would be rapid due to IIRC at least 175-200 PSI. {accounting for reports of partial sinking} If one of two screws turns the ship would get underway. I remember for a while we ran on 3 of 4 screws.

[Southack]

"At this point we know a missile was fired. The ship sustained some damage (at least a temporary mission kill), and four sailors appear to be dead. So what happened? In all likelihood, this ship did not sustain a serious hit. I say this because of the low loss of life and no serious fire damage. Even a dud would produce more if it entered the superstructure."

Light to moderate damage would hint at the Israeli ship's Phalanx scoring a kill against the missile...but close to the ship.

[Eastbound]

Don't have it removed, Jeff. Possibility that it was a port side strike. Good object lessons here anyway.

[justa-hairyape]

Don't have it removed, Jeff. Possibility that it was a port side strike. Good object lessons here anyway.

The back end of the superstructure looks odd. Perhaps hit on the port side about 10 to 20 feet above water line and near to where the superstructure begins.