Homo No Mo’? A report from the June 10 Love Won Out conference.

Although evangelical “ex-gay” ministries began in the 1970s, recently they’ve started to come under the public eye. Ex-gay groups have turned up on TV shows like Malcolm in the Middle and Veronica Mars (not to mention the painfully funny satire But I’m a Cheerleader!), and subway ads with cute young adults proclaiming that they “questioned homosexuality” or “chose to change” appear every couple of years in the D.C. area. Last summer, a Tennessee ex-gay program run by the group Love in Action gained (or suffered) national prominence when one 16-year-old posted on his MySpace blog about his unhappiness at his parents’ decision to send him to the camp.

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So what are these programs? Are they havens for wounded people exiting a self-destructive lifestyle? Cruising grounds for self-hating, hypocritical predators? Places to heal from past hurts, or places where teens are indoctrinated into shame and despair?

From what I can tell, ex-gay ministries can be all of the above, to different people in different situations.

What they aren’t is what many conservative evangelicals seem to want them to be: the ultimate answer to the gay-rights movement. The groups’ problems are deeply embedded in their self-understanding.

Even some who consider themselves “ex-ex-gays” acknowledge that the programs help some people. Joe Riddle, who spent five years in the Mormon ex-gay group Evergreen, told me, “I definitely think the ex-gay choice is valid, and for some people it truly [works].” But, he added, “I think those people tend to drop out of the ex-gay groups and fly solo. The people who make it work are the people who do it on their own and depoliticize it.” And in his experience, such people were few: “I only met two people who shared convincing stories of [change of sexual orientation].”

The ex-gay movement attempts to bring psychoanalytic techniques into the service of Christian ministry. Many of the conference speakers — Joseph Nicolosi of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality was the most insistent — proclaimed that there were several types of homosexuals, due to a small set of identifiable, fixable traumas. (I noted that I fit many of Nicolosi’s criteria for a “pre-homosexual” boy — imaginative, theatrical, lonely, quick to internalize criticism — but only a strained interpretation could fit me into any of his categories for lesbians.) This leads to easily-disproved statements like Nicolosi’s claim that gay men don’t remain friends after they stop being sexually interested in one another, because if they had strong, non-sexual male friendships it would “heal their homosexuality.” Some men with same-sex attractions find that Nicolosi’s categories and prescriptions fit them very well — I spoke with one man, who wished to be identified as “Frank,” who said he’d gained a lot of insight through work with a Nicolosi-inspired therapist. But he added that he had not yet experienced any change in his sexual orientation.

During the entire nine hours of the conference, none of the speakers I heard discussed how to live chastely while experiencing same-sex attractions. The focus was entirely on the goal of switching sexual orientations.

Mike Haley, the director of gender issues for Focus on the Family and probably the speaker at the conference with whom I disagreed least, told me afterward that one small-group session had discussed chastity. “We don’t want people to believe that change means you have to be married and have to have kids,” he said, and then added, “The opposite of homosexuality isn’t heterosexuality, the opposite of homosexuality is holiness. We’re not trying to create people from homosexual to heterosexual.” These statements don’t line up with what I heard at the conference; but it’s much easier to be nuanced in one-on-one conversations than in lectures to big audiences.

Haley argued that the “origin stories” of homosexuality offered by Nicolosi and others “almost always ring true. With 12 years of involvement in the gay community I never met a homosexual man who had a positive relationship with his father at the ages of 8, 9, or 10 years old. All I can go by is my experience with the hundreds and hundreds of men I come in contact with who say, ‘Oh, you just told my story.’”

Lance Carroll, who spent eight weeks at a Love in Action program last year (when he was 17), strongly disagreed: “I don’t fit their stereotypical homosexual background. …I had a good relationship with my father.” He described his experience with Love in Action as “horrendous,” recalling “group activities where one person was singled out and made to associate shame with something homosexual that they had done. This was done many times for each person, in an attempt to condition you to believe that being homosexual was shameful. Other ‘therapies’ included isolation, where you wouldn’t be allowed to make eye contact, much less talk, with any of the other participants; making the women wear skirts and makeup to help them become more feminine; and making the men play sports in an attempt to help them become more masculine.”

Peterson Toscano, creator of a performance piece (“Doing Time at the Homo No Mo’ Halfway House”) based on his experiences as a self-described “ex-gay survivor,” spent 17 years seeking to change his sexual orientation. Toscano recalled that in the ex-gay programs, “I felt very much cared for and comforted in my struggles. In the midst of it, it didn’t feel like something horrible was happening.”

Nonetheless, he said, “The vast majority, and I am not exaggerating, of the scores and scores of people I know through these organizations, are out now, accept themselves as gay, and look back on that time as very traumatic and difficult. …Many of them have walked away from God and any sort of faith tradition because they were so disappointed — they’d been lied to over and over again by people speaking in Jesus’ name.”

At Love in Action’s residential program, Toscano said, “You could not spend more than 15 minutes a day in the bathroom with the door closed — you had to break that time up as best as you could. You were not allowed to wear Calvin Klein [underwear]; they didn’t want us to have facial hair; you couldn’t wear aftershave. It was very controlling. If you were in the early phase of the program you couldn’t be by yourself. You couldn’t watch television, listen to anything but Christian music; you had very limited access to people in the outside world. …The rules were inconvenient; but what makes it worse was the moral stigma: ‘You cannot be trusted.’ It eats away at a person, it’s very detrimental.”

While he was in the program, one of his friends attempted suicide. “Miraculously, he survived,” Toscano said, “but he was ready to put himself out — he was so tired of failing.”

Just sneaking a few minutes to enter the fray. There's a lot of back-and-forth on this thread, disagreements, and people who probably in essence agree but maybe there's communication difficulties?

Here's just a few of my random thoughts, FWIW:

People have said on the thread (my paraphrasing) that no one can be free from temptation. Well, I don't entirely agree with that*. Example: I used to be an alcoholic and drug user. My desire (at different times in my life) to drink alcohol or use drugs and subsequent actions almost cost me my life who knows how many times. Cost me family, cost me jobs, wound up in jail cells at least a couple of times, etc etc. Now, someone could hand me any kind of drugs or alcohol and (sorry for the caps - I have to emphasize this) I HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO - ZILCH - NADA - NO - NONE - NOT A TINY PINCH - of desire to indulge even one sip, one inhalation, one swallow. I am not in the least tempted by any of it.

Why? Well, the simple answer is that God changed me, or healed me. Was it over night? Well, in a sense yes, in a sense no. I stopped the activity like turning on a dime. I think I smoked marijuana 2 times after realized that since God didn't want me to, I wouldn't do it any more, and each time I was hanging out with people doing it, and sort of slipped into it. And seriously regretted it. (Both times were over 20 years ago.) Have I thought about doing any alcohol or drugs? Not seriously - in fact, the thought of either makes me feel pretty sick, although in some dark states of mind years ago I did think about it for a little while.

Why have I remained clean and sober for so many years? (I'll mention that alcohol and drugs are kind of a family trait for many of my relatives.) How did God help me? One of the ways He helped me was by giving me a taste of His love and mercy, which is infinitely more satisfying than the junk of this world. But such transcendent experiences come and go, especially in the beginning of one's spiritual journey. C.S. Lewis talks about this. Another way He helped me was by showing me insights about myself. Real self-knowledge is a gift from God - as our hearts become freer from the grip of illusion and pretense, we start to see ourselves as we are - the actual good soul underneath it all, AND all the layers of conditioning and evil and selfishness and so on. This is a kind of "spiritual psychology". I was given insights into the causes of my behaviors, motivations I didn't know I had, and what some of the causes and influences were that led to such behaviors.

So can a person become free of various kinds of sinful desires AND behaviors solely by God's grace? Yes. Does God use things in this world to help those who beg Him for help? Yes. Does He also use (and expect US to use) our own intelligence? Yes. Can and does He use others' wisdom and experience to help us? YES!

How about this little joke/story:

A man is in a flood - the river is rising. It's getting to the first floor, then second floor. He climbs to the roof, waiting and praying for help. He's on his knees, begging God to save him. A raft goes by - the people yell - "Climb on board - the river's going to rise more!" The man replies - "No, God will save me!"

He goes on praying, loudly, to God for help. Then a boat goes by, with rescue people, asking him to jump down and climb into the boat. Again the man refuses, expecting God's assitance. Meanwhile the river is steadily rising.

At last the man is desperate - "God! Please help me!" Then a rescue helicopter hovers overheld and lowers a basket on a rope, with the men in the copter practically ordering him to climb in. Again, the man refuses - "God will save me!" The copter flies off.

Finally, the man cries out to God - "Why don't you save me?" He hears a voice, saying in exasperation: "I sent a raft, a boat, and then a helicopter - what do you want Me to do?"

And final note: Everyone is a unique individual. People are at different spots on the road, have differing conditioning, different desires, differing levels of sincerity, desire for change, and so on. What's wrong with a multiplicity of ways out of the "gay" life, or any other miserable and sinful way of life?

And final, final note: Some people find their way out of the "gay" life without a religious conversion at all. Does this make their struggle or success meaningless? I don't think so.

*The reasoning for my conviction that people can in many cases become free from temptation is that the desire for sin (sin being that which goes against the desire of God) is not intrinsic in us. It is like dirt, or sickness. The natural condition of the soul is blessed unity in love with God. The world is like a hospital, we are sick with spiritual sickness. But it is possible to become spiritually well, since it is who we really are. Does it happen overnight? No. It is a gradual process, but that doesn't mean everyone progresses at the same rate, or that some don't give up, or even try. Others persevere.

Thank you for the ping on this.

Gee... nothing is ever straightforward, and yet so many people seem to think it is.

I approach this from another place. This discussion is taking place from within the environment of Christianity and religious faith. There is much talk of being cured by faith, and that alone being the only way.

I instantly think about the homosexuals who live in Islamic or other non-christian places (the majority of the world population), and realize from what you are saying that their homosexuality will never be cured... unless enforced marriage or beatings will help, as that is the way for most of them.

I'm sure that for those who wish to be cured, there is probably a way, whether by faith, a combination of faith and therapy.... faith, therapy and potions... whatever combination an individual or organization might think to be the best.

I say 'probably' with good will behind it, because as we all know, very many fail, leading to depression, suicide, or a backlash into the arms of the homosexual agenda.

Some might say that this is because of lack of faith, or weakness... or whatever... The fact remains that not all find it possible, and humanity is a frail condition.

There will always be those who are successful, and will fly that flag with fervor... while others will cower in failure and run into corners like rats...

This is the REALITY, no matter what we may believe. The world isn't ideal.

Since this is a Christian thread (?), I am posting as an 'outsider'. However, a large number those out there who are homosexual practitioners, or just concidering embarking on that 'career', are not Christian, or are at minimum liberal Christians. This means that this discussion instantly excludes them. It is only concerned with a particular category of person... ones who follow your specific belief system.

If a homosexual wants to try to change his/her sexual orientation, good luck to them.

If it's a matter of saving their soul, then that's a personal thing between them and their personal God. (God is personal isn't He? He judges each individual by his/her ability and talents)

If it's because they can't go through life without molesting the first desirable person of the same sex who passes their way, then they clearly need to do something about that... if curing their homosexual attraction is the best way to do it, then go to it.

My own interest in this thread relates to my own personal moral code... the protection of society, the youth, the children, the preservation of moral structures and our civilized inheritance.

Personally, I don't have the pressures of faith to dictate my need to undergo treatment for my disorder. I manage it and 'contain' it, and very happily, thank you very much.

Maybe this thread is about Christian faith... In which case, cure them and throw the failures into the arms of the homo activists, which is in effect what happens to many.

If it isn't about that, then to promote that homosexual cure is only achieved through Christian faith is rather blinkered. You ignore the majority of those who need to be confronted. They certainly won't be listening to invites for conversion.

Cure may be one solution for some, but for others, it certainly isn't.
Education and 'containment' is an approach to consider in tandum.

Sorry for the rather messy post.

Those were not my words. They were the words of Jesus.

What makes you define yourself as "attracted" to men? By calling yourself homosexual, I can assume that you aren't just wanting their friendship or admiring their personality traits. So I am curious where you draw the line between your definition of attration and lust? What is lust?

I read your freeper page and found it very interesting and admirable. One thing though, I don't think you can speak for the effects of religious conversion since you haven't experienced it. In the theology of Christianity, we all struggle with sin, but that stuggle lessens as we increase in our knowledge of and love for our Lord Jesus Christ. He is holy, and out of love He offered Himself as a sacrifice for our sins. So on judgement day when we all stand before God to give account of our lives, we will be judged according to Christ's righteousness. That's the judicial part. More than that, when we repent of our sins and turn to Christ, we are given the Holy Spirit to moment by moment convict and keep us from sin. This may sound like drudgery and misery to the outsider, but I assure you it is the greatest joy imaginable to the Christian because we long to be like Christ. We hate the sin in ourselves that cost Him so dearly, and we long to be free of it. He gives us His Spirit so that we can be changed -- transformed! -- into His image as we surrender our lives to Him. It isn't misery at all. And it isn't a non-cure. It is the greatest joy I have ever known. There is still grieving when I fail, but He is always there to forgive me and has given me the Bible which acts as the discerner of my heart and intentions and my instructor and trainer in rightousness. To believe He can transform us is what faith is all about. We are saved by this faith and we are to walk the rest of our lives by this faith.

Please understand that I greatly admire your courage and honesty in admitting the abnormality of homosexuality even though you had every selfish reason to deny the obvious. I think God gave you that strength and knowledge so that you could understand your own sin and guilt. He offers you forgiveness through faith in Jesus Christ. But there is a cost. Jesus said, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." (Matt. 16:24-25). Faith is faith in the Lordship of Jesus Christ. You make Him Lord of your life and He brings you victory over your sin (victory over sin was accomplished through His ressurection, just as the penalty of sin was paid through His death).

That is the road your friends stepped out on. They may struggle daily with sin (the longer the sin was practiced, the harder the struggle might be, which is really just a lingering consequence of sin. We are forgiven, but consequences remain), but the Holy Spirit of the living God is there to lead them through their temptations until all they desire is to know Christ and to glorify Him. They can love their brother with Christian purity. They can marry a woman or not. There is no requirement there. But they know that homosexuality is a great offense to God, and that God designed us to fit naturally with the opposite sex. Any other desire is sin that needs to be confessed and turned away from. Jesus bore the sin and the shame for them -- and you, if you put your trust in Him.

That said, I also believe that a person can choose to not be a Christian yet work to improve his life and morality. God transforms the heart, but being created by a holy God, we can manage to improve ourselves to a great degree. We are moral creatures who do recognize right from wrong, and while we cannot be sinless (we all have a sin nature), we can make right choices. We are still accountable for all our sins. But life is better seeking to do right rather than wrong even if we do not accept the claims and terms of Christianity. It won't make us righteous before a holy God, but it will leave us with a better, more manageable life. So God bless your efforts and your honesty no matter what. I wish you continued success! And I deeply thank you for your specific comment where you said you try to not let your problem be a bother to others. Wow! Bless you for that.

This is the fix for sin:

Romans 6:1-23 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans - Chapter 8

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?

Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.

Rom 8:34 Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Darkwolf

You're starting to confuse me. In a previous thread I offered to do some research, and you told me not to bother. I am starting to get confused by your comments and I hope that you are sincere in voicing your concerns. If you are, I am cetainly certainly open to discussion.

To answer your charge, I do care. Unfortunately, I am not a walking encyclopedia and coming up with he depth of argument you seem to require is going to take some time. I do have to pay bills and make a living. I will go through my computer files and some web sites and see what I can come up with that is most convincing. I also have a couple good books. Give me an opportunity.

Let me say a few things from just what I know off the top of my head. I think, first of all, the basic question "what is the proof of successful change from homosexual to heterosexual" is a legitimate one. Believe me, it plagued me for much of my life.

A look at sceintiffic literature will reveal pretty consistently that of people who seek to leave homosexuality through some kind of change therapy, about a third are successful, about a third experience some degree of change but it is not complete, and about a third do not experience change. You need to look especially at the studies that took place before the 1973 decision to remove homosexuality as a psychiatric diagnosis. There are web sites which catalog these studies.

What is significant about psychiatric studies is that the rates of successful change are consistent with other psychiatric disorders, such as anxiety disorders. The ability to treat homosexuality is pretty consistent with our ability to treat other mental disorders, especially other anxiety related disorders (i believe that anxiety is at the core of most homosexuality). To put it another way, our lack of success in helping people change says more about the dismal state of mental health care than it says about whether or not homosexuality is amenable to treatment.

An interesting statistic to look at is this: the percentage of the population that self-identifies as homosexual declines with age. I don't have the exact numbers, but say, for example, 4% of the population identifies themselves as homosexual between the ages of 16 and 20; between the ages of 30 and 40 only 3% of the population identifies as homosexual; between the ages of 40 and 50, only 2% of the population and so on. I don't know the exact numbers, but the drop off is significant. That change cannot be explained solely by higher mortality rates for homosexuals. It seems likely that at least some of the people who are "dropping out of homosexuality" (ceasing to self-identify as homosexuals) are achieving heterosexual functioning.

It's late now Darkwolf. More later.

I never said we would be free from temptation. But a life turned over to the lordship of Jesus Christ is not going to give into it so easily, or even experience it in the same way as he did before. Your priorities have changed. You view sin totally differently. When you fail, it grieves you tremondously.

I think many people err by thinking temptation is never a sin. It sometimes isn't when it is momentary and uncaused by yourself. But if you were to spend your time in bars given your past then I would say the eventual tempation would be your own doing -- a sin because you brought it on yourself. Frankly, the fact that an alcoholic struggles with desire is a consequence of previous sin. They don't start out that way.

I could go on and on, but you get the idea. We give ourselves too much credit and we play with fire when we do not admit that we cause some of this ourselves. We can't avoid it if we won't admit what causes it.

Consider this:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, F3 wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, F4 unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Sometimes the temptation is the result of another sin. You may not feel like it is your fault, but it stems from a sin nature that is always at enmity with God. The fix must be as deeply rooted as the problem itself. When people make the claim that faith is not enough I think it is because they do not understand what true faith is, or even exactly what sin is.

Frankly I don't get the big push to insist desiring homosexual sex is not a sin. Does anyone question whether desiring sex with your neighbors wife is a sin? We must deal with the sin in our hearts if we really want a cure. Turn every thought captive to Christ.

Here are some verses to add to ones I previously posted. The theme is throughout the Bible. Sin starts in the heart, as does repentance.

2Co 10:5 - casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,

Ps 141:4 - Do not incline my heart to any evil thing, To practice wicked works With men who work iniquity; And do not let me eat of their delicacies.

Pr 3:1 - My son, do not forget my law, But let your heart keep my commands;

Pr 3:5 - Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

Pr 6:14 - Perversity is in his heart, He devises evil continually, He sows discord.

Pr 6:18 - A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,

Pr 6:25 - Do not lust after her beauty in your heart, Nor let her allure you with her eyelids.

Pr 7:10 - And there a woman met him, With the attire of a harlot, and a crafty heart.

Pr 7:25 - Do not let your heart turn aside to her ways, Do not stray into her paths;

Pr 11:20 - Those who are of a perverse heart are an abomination to the Lord, But the blameless in their ways are His delight.

You're starting to confuse me. In a previous thread I offered to do some research, and you told me not to bother. I am starting to get confused by your comments and I hope that you are sincere in voicing your concerns.

I've asked several times for data, and you've not been able to come up with it. If it existed I would think you WOULD keep urls handy for these kinds of discussions. I would LIKE this information, but since you say it will involve digging, let's just cut to the chase, shall we?

I commented on this issue previously, and then let it alone. It doesn't interest me as much as it does you, for obvious reasons, but I AM interested in human behavior. Yesterday you PINGED! me because, I assume, you want to somehow win me over.

I say this with as much kindness as I can offer; I can't blame you if you don't respect that. But since I don't know you, I can only base my thoughts on what's posted here.

You strike me as a type I've encountered frequently in various situations in life--you're a Believer. Not in Christ (though you may be that) but in SOMETHING. Believers don't need facts because they KNOW already. But what Believers can't seem to grasp is that strangers aren't going to just buy into that belief.

I have come to a conclusion about people: They don't change. They can TRY to change; they can abstain from behavior; they can make cosmetic alterations. But what they ARE, inside, doesn't change. When people point out various seismic changes in people due to religious experience, I point out that they are really revealing something which was in them all along--maybe not a belief in God but an intense NEED for a belief in God, for example.

But at their core, people don't change. When people argue this, it's funny how often they point to the Bible instead of real-life first-hand knowledge of people who are altering not jsut behavior but their basic NATURES. THAT is the key--not stopping from boozing when they see it's getting them in trouble, not selling their comic book collection and moving out of mom's house, but real alteration of the SELF.

The people who claim they have changed on this most basic level are among the most intense Believers. And whether it's boozing or gambling or just being a mean SOB, I've seen far too many of these Believers revert to form when their "self control" relents. (Rush Limbaugh, discussing his weight loss, made some great points about "self-control," and how it doesn't matter in something like weight loss, or any major life change.)

Believers, in my experience, believe intensely in the power of positive thinking--if they WANT their basic natures to change, they WILL change.

You strike me as one of these people.

I may be 100% wrong. I only say this based on what you've posted on this subject. Keep that in mind.

But someone who is so intensely into this kind of thing won't convince me with just this attitude of "It just IS, okay?" Because in my experience, wanting to change is just that, wanting. I believe people can change but usually in ways one can't plan or affect; change occurs over time, and in ways we don't consciously control.

On a matter so basic as sexual orientation, I don't think one can wish it away.

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