Europe restates support for Iran nuclear power

The world does not need a demonstration, the world knows Arabs want Israel destroyed and it does not care. The US does, at least one party within it. The rest of the world wishes that ***** little country and all the trouble they think it causes, would disappear. They know innocents would die and they do not remotely care. They sold out Africa, they sold out southeast Asia, they will sell out the middle east.

By all means build a wall, but it doesn't stop the bombers. Pull out of wherever you wish to pull out of, it won't get you better press but emboldened Arab radicals and new waves of western appeasement from the left, meant to distinguish said left from other targets. Academics in the US want to boycott Israel more now, after Israel withdrawals and 9-11, than they did before.

And the fact is, Israel won't even cut off tax payments to Hamas. They are paying to be murdered. Not exactly the greatest boost to their deterrent credibility.

Iran will bide its time after it gets its first nukes. Oh it will test to let the world know. But then it will be as statesmanlike as you please, such a wonderful contrast to the warmongering west and warmongering Israel. And the bomb production line will ramp 2 bombs a year, 5, 10, 25. In a decade, they will have 200 warheads and won't have used one. They also won't have dropped support for Hamas, which won't be at peace.

They may even wait for 2-3 others to get through to widen the deniability net. Brazil, Indonesia, who knows maybe Venezuela or Syria. And then they will gives a tenth of their arsenal to Hamas and the like, and a quarter to the likes of Al-Qaeda. And the demands will begin. They know how safe it will be. They see how much we kiss Russian and Chinese tail today, while they proliferate to nutjobs, and they draw the lesson.

Two generations on, the nuclear genie well out of the bottle and every anti-western fanatic with a grievance able to get his hands on one, the west simply won't run the world any more. And that is exactly what they want. They even think it will be highly popular. Those arrogant bastards, they will get theirs.

And you want to know the funny part? The left will want to appease them even more, even after they get that far. And will blame the whole thing on the sins of the colonial past, the greed of capitalism, etc.

200 odd warheads will not be produced undetected. I doubt they can even produce a rubber boat without beeing monitored.

It's cetainly not close to that finish line because I haven't heard the israely F-16s running warm and I suppose Iranians will not spread their nukes to people they where at war with only some years ago.

Nuclear terrorsim will get more likely IF Apeboy get's his toys. But he will not. I just hope we don't have to bow to his demand and bomb that country.

Oh and of course, they will explain that only world government can possibly save us, and that to be accepted that government will have to represent "the South", etc.

No, they are close to producing 1. But when they have 1, its use is to deter attack, that is all. Under the cover of that deterrent, they will build lots more. We will know all about it. But with the prospect of a nuke going off if we try anything, we won't try anything. We won't try anything now.

And Iran will spread its nukes to anybody who will use them against Israel and America. They think 50 years of nuclear war by proxy will dethrone the modern west. That is their grand strategy. It is also China's grand strategy, you can read it in documents produced by their military academies. And Iran is an instance of it.

But that strategy will leave this planet uninhabitable by any lifefrom higher developed then KKK members... a nuclear proxy war will not leave a price to win.

No joke - why should china try something stupid like that while they can bleed our working force from us and get rich all at the same time ? They should be the ones protecting us because they feed from us.

You read their military academy papers ? You mind posting one ? Translated of course.

Meanwhile, Islam is running amok in Europe while your continent is underbreeding itself into extinction.

Not all Muslims in Europe are fanatics or terrorists. I.e. most of the Turkish population in Germany are nice and decent people that would never ever do something illegal. Your impression in North Carolina does not nessecarily cope with the realities in Europe. We have indeed some problems in the bigger towns but the influence of the Turkish minority declined since the beginning 90ties. No reason to be alarmed. In France and the UK things are different, but all this blahblah about dhimmithude is complete BS.

Your only alternative to your eventual destruction is stopping them in their tracks while somehow changing their murderous culture. That's a very tough thing to do, but it won't be done by promising them Mercedes full of pretty mistresses and plush seats on the UN Human Rights Commission.

What is your suggestion to solve this problem??!

--- BTW - Europe is not really in danger of Iranian nukes since we have no real conflict with them.---

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease! Don't make me laugh! Europe created Israel, and Europe is super liberal, therefore, Iran MUST wipe you off the map too!

Don't be a sheep!

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease! Don't make me laugh! Europe created Israel, and Europe is super liberal, therefore, Iran MUST wipe you off the map too!

Very unlikely. The Iranians know that they will be blasted away by all those French nukes if they only fart into the direction of Europe. They will do nothing. Furthermore we are no enemies to them. Maybe we are immoral, maybe we are Christians and maybe we trink too much champagne, but we never had a open conflict with Iran. This is a big difference to Israel and the US.

Anyway I doubt that they ever would use their nukes. Not even against the Israelis since they know that they -like Europe- will also answer nuclear. It is rather a political weapon for them. The biggest problem could be that they sell nukes to Syria, Egypt or Turkey.

Nevertheless we must do everything to press them into our direction. The problem is that we do not have too many choices to do so. I.e. it would be helpful if my own gouvernment could close the economic relations with this country. Europe is the window to the free world for the mullahs. They send their kids to our univercities and their wifes to our hospitals for treatment. Believe it or not - it would be a disaster for Iran if this window is shut.

You need to read the book called: "While Europe Slept." It's written by a very liberal American who got a real eye opening while living in Europe.

"While Europe Slept : How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385514727/102-9046882-9965760?v=glance&n=283155

From Publishers Weekly:

Having recently published an indictment of Christian fundamentalist intolerance in the U.S. (Stealing Jesus), New York native Bawer relocated to Europe with his Norwegian partner in 1998 and found an even more dangerous strain of religious and cultural bigotry ensnaring Western Europe. A swarming menace called radical Islam, he writes, rings Europe's cities in smoldering Muslim ghettos, provoking everything from so-called honor killings and political assassinations to the Madrid subway bombings and the massacre of school children in Beslan. Worse, the Taliban-like theocracy Bawer sees looming inside backward immigrant populations resistant to integration flourishes under the protective wing of Western Europe's America-bashing, multicultural, liberal establishment. The latter correspond to the appeasers of Nazi Germany, in Bawer's view, since he believes that radical Islamism is every bit the threat to Western civilization that Nazism was. He scoffs at talk of "understanding" or "dialogue," indeed, at any but the most muscular response hitching Europe ever tighter to the U.S. war on terror. His clash-of-civilizations outlook means real issues often get washed away by sweeping statements designed to tar Europe's Muslims with one irredeemably hostile, welfare-sponging brush, while trading in well-worn stereotypes about virtuous American "realists" and corrupt European "idealists." (Mar.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

Certainly a viable scenario, I must say. I'm sure you've heard the joke about the dog and the scorpion.

Dog and a scorpion are on one side of a river. The water is rising and the only hope is to swim to the other side. The scorpion appeals to the dog to let him ride on his back across the river.

The dog has his reservations, "If I do that for you, you must agree not to sting me."

The scorpion replied, "I swear."

The scorpion climbed aboard the dog, and the dog plunged in and started swimming across.

Halfway across, the dog feels a sharp pain in his neck just above his collar and realizes the scorpion has stung him.

The dog asks the scorpion, "Why have you stung me, now you have killed us both!!"

The scorpion replied, "I guess its just my nature."

My joke underlines a fundamental point about Iran - its their nature, and I don't know if they have it in them to wait.

If they do, it'll be to have enough to have redundancies, and then they'll wipe them out. They don't necessarily care about us as much as about wiping out Israel. They may even think that wiping out Israel will essentially take us out of the picture.

To an extent, they have a point. Without Israel, who cares? We get 6% of our oil from that reason, and if Israel were off limits, we'd manage. Frankly, I'm sick of carrying water for Europe (with the exception of central eastern Europe), which means that the UK is really the only folks over there we give a toss about.

Not all Muslims in Europe are fanatics or terrorists. I.e. most of the Turkish population in Germany are nice and decent people that would never ever do something illegal.

Certainly most are not outwardly fanatics or terrorists. But all of them are Muslims, and if you are a Muslim, you necessarily believe in certain things inimical to Western culture and freedom, viz. Sharia Law.

The point is, while all Muslims are not bomb throwers and may even be individually "nice" people, their core allegiance usually runs to what is at their core - i.e. Islam.

One could also say most Germans in 1941 were nice people as well (no doubt the case) but that is not the point. Unfortunately, they were coopted and controlled by the Nazi system and what they believed and what they supported (or passively supported) was a danger to themselves and their neighbors.

Your impression in North Carolina does not nessesarily cope with the realities in Europe.

Where I live in North Carolina, it is very peaceful and Muslims are not considered a local threat. That does not mean they are not ultimately a threat to my country, culture or freedoms. It is a settled fact they are.

The Islamic system has busied itself for centuries past and present marauding throughout the world (including Europe) expanding their beliefs by all means it deems necessary, including the sword. It has not given that up. It remains a threat to your culture and beliefs as well as mine. Just because Muslims are not actively threshing you where you live does not ensure they are, or will, forsake it tomorrow.

We have indeed some problems in the bigger towns but the influence of the Turkish minority declined since the beginning 90ties. No reason to be alarmed.

Using this line of thinking, there is no cause for alarm until your own house is ablaze - even though your neighbor's house is in flames, or at least hotly smoldering.

In France and the UK things are different,...

... as well as Belgium, Holland, France, Bosnia, Chechnya, Nigeria, East Timor, Thailand, etc., etc.

... but all this blahblah about dhimmithude is complete BS.

Please relay your hopeful message of universal peace and safety to the many millions of dhimmis oppressed throughout the world, in what were formerly non-Islamic countries before the Muslims took over and placed them into servitude!

The facts on the ground and in history do not support your optimistic wishes despite the relative peacefulness of your, and my, little corners.

Certainly most are not outwardly fanatics or terrorists. But all of them are Muslims, and if you are a Muslim, you necessarily believe in certain things inimical to Western culture and freedom, viz. Sharia Law.

I know quite a few "modern" muslims who relativize Koran and the Hadiths. It is quite simular to those Christians who accept Darwinism i.e. without loosing their belief in Jesus. They do not beat their women, give a damm upon burkhas, drink good French wine and adopt western habits and values. In western Europe we have a interesting discussion going on about a new reformed "Euro-Islam". A modernized Islam that is compatible to a western society. It is a fact that Europe and Europeans will have to live with this minority and I think anyway that everybody should be free to believe in whatever he wants to. Therefore I appreciate this kind of development.

One could also say most Germans in 1941 were nice people as well (no doubt the case) but that is not the point. Unfortunately, they were coopted and controlled by the Nazi system and what they believed and what they supported (or passively supported) was a danger to themselves and their neighbors.

This is a good comparison. There is also the solution to this problem. It will be impossibe to get "rid" of islam as long as we do not want to kill roundabout 1.200.000.000 people. Therefore the attempt of Pres. Bush and the US to bring democracy and western values to the middle east is the only possible way to make this world a littlebit safer. It is the same thing in the French and English gettoes of north Africans and Pakistanis. They need culture, they need values and they need a reform of their religion (it would be better to see them convert to christendom but that is just wishful thinking).

Using this line of thinking, there is no cause for alarm until your own house is ablaze - even though your neighbor's house is in flames, or at least hotly smoldering.

2.4% Turks are living in Germany, between 5 and 10% Muslims in France and 2.7% Muslims in the UK. They are on the lower class of society, lack education and are not able to organize themselves into a homogenous block. All in all they can do some riots, but they are not too impressive. Everything else is exaggerated propaganda.

"The EU is trying to build common ground between the USA and China and Russia.

If all it took was air strikes, I am pretty sure America would of acted by now.

But they haven't, America is trying to build a common consensus and the EU is aiding her.

Instead of always attacking Europe I think you should look closer to home to what America is really saying and then to what China and Russia are saying."

That was well said, and I agree. Some of the opinions that you are seeing are continuing reactions to anti-US speech from western Europe, talk of "empire" and perceptions that western Europe won't defend itself when needed (which appears to be true of most countries in western Europe so far). But after the many British criticisms through 2001, for example, Britain's military help in places like Afghanistan and Iraq is unforgettable. Others are also assisting to various extents--even France.

Although few, if anyone, yet knows the composition of a possible military coalition for shutting down Iran's likely nuclear weapons projects, I think that it will likely involve cooperative efforts by quite a number of countries. Some that won't be able to contribute soldiers will be helping in other ways.

"If Iran became nuclear capable, and did decide to attack Israel, Israel would wipe Iran of the Map, and if the Iranian leadership was as mad as some on this site say."

Israel also has an anti-ballistic missile defense and will no doubt continue improving that. Iran could probably do nothing more than lose by launching on Israel (which was recently, publicly said by our Air Force to have around 400 nuclear weapons itself). The rest of the west would not fear Iran as a result but would shut Iran down.

Remember that the ultimate objective of the mad mullahs and their friends is to conquer/convert the whole world.

After asking myself as to how the mullahs could murder thousands of people in another country and receive enough of its own casualties to further rouse their Islamist friends in other countries, I arrive at the reason for Iran seeking and modifying its missiles for further range than necessary to hit Israel. The Iranian leaders are probably looking to eventually launch on a country that has no anti-ballistic missile defense and to be feared by western culture countries other than Israel.

In other words, Ahmadinejad and his associates (even the advising, retired General in Pakistan) try to restrict threats to those against Israel in order to keep the rest of the west (all of us) as lax as possible while planning future nuclear attacks against the rest of us. ...not to forget Iran's promises to export nuclear capabilities to other Islamist regimes and that Khan brought nuclear technology to Syria.

The leaders of Iran are mad, in some ways, but they might sometimes pretend to be more mad than they are in perpetuating ruses. ...something like North Korea but even more willing to carry out attacks. They are more suicidal, but they are shrewd in some ways.

As for Russia, she's destabilized the Middle East before and is attempting to do so again for her own desires of "empire."

"ummm correct me if i am wrong but didn't that happen ?

Or was the USA as it is today build by the apache and sioux ?"

No, America was built by colonists who rebelled against European tyranny; we were not established or built by any European country.

The prize is power, and the continued viability of non-western social systems. They don't care about wealth for its own sake. Those making the decisions have all the wealth they require, personally, and they do not work for the masses, but the other way around. Wealth interests them solely as a means to power. Besides, do you really think the EU will fight back? Or the US left, whenever it is in power? They get the willies over cheap, clean wins like Iraq. Think they will oppose less ferociously, the "right wing nutcase warmonger who is going to get Baltimore nuked", that actually doing anything about any of it, would require?

It isn't complicated, they see how we treat troublemakers like Russia and they want to be treated that way. Big nuclear arsenals and means to deliver are clearly the necessary item.

Once we can be intimidated into staying clear of them, they can and will make trouble every way their ideology suggests. Which means, lots of ways.