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A Good Neanderthal Was Hard to Find
NY Times:Week in Review ^ | February 26, 2006 | JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Posted on 02/26/2006 3:25:01 AM PST by Pharmboy

Maybe they just didn't have time to get to know each other.

The question of what Neanderthals and Homo sapiens might have done on cold nights in their caves, if they happened to get together and the fire burned down to embers, has intrigued scientists since the 19th century, when the existence of Neanderthals was discovered.

A correction in the way prehistoric time is measured using radiocarbon dating, described last week in the journal Nature, doesn't answer the enduring question, but it might at least help explain why no DNA evidence of interbreeding has been found: the two species spent less time together than was previously believed.

The old radiocarbon calculation is now known to be off by as much as several thousand years, the new research shows. That means that modern Homo sapiens barged into Europe 46,000 years ago, 3,000 years earlier than once estimated. But the radiocarbon dating under the new calculation also shows that their takeover of the continent was more rapid, their coexistence with the native Neanderthals much briefer.

snip...

Was that advantage cognitive, technological or demographic? Their personal ornaments and cave art, now seen to have emerged much earlier, are strong evidence for an emergence of complex symbolic behavior among the modern newcomers, a marked advance in their intelligence.

That doesn't mean they didn't interbreed with the Neanderthals.

snip...

"Since these two species may have been able to interbreed, as many closely related mammal species can," Dr. Harvati said, "a restricted coexistence interval may be easier to reconcile with the observed lack of Neanderthal genetic contribution to the modern human gene pool and with the paucity of convincing fossil evidence for hybridization."

The caves, it would seem, still hold their secrets.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist; europe; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; humanevolution; milfordwolpoff; neandertal; neandertals; neanderthal; neanderthals
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To: NicknamedBob; elmer fudd; blam; SauronOfMordor
Oh, and another point that I made over and over again yesterday is that in order to get Neanderthal genes into Cro-Magnon communities you have to have human females having sex with Neanderthal males. That's because the hybrid needs to end up back in the Cro-Magnon community. That's because if the hybrid is in the Neanderthal community the admixed genes will eventually go extinct along with that community.

So, all this talk about men having sex with chickens and goats and dolphins and whatever misses the point entirely IMHO. In fact, this is one of those very rare times when I would say an argument seems revealing of androcentric thinking.

And the reason why I'm excluding Cro-Magnon male/Neanderthal female pairings as any kind of general rule is because we don't find mixed communities in the archeaological record, and in order for those admixtures to remain in the ultimate human gene pool, you have to have the Neanderthal women stay in the Cro-Magnon community.

And who the heck knows if that's even conceivable. Could they be domesticated? No one has the slightest clue. The assumption itself is yet another example of 'humanizing' Neanderthals in my view. For all we know, a Neanderthal female would never do anything but bite, kick, and claw until you killed her or let her go.

141 posted on 02/26/2006 12:30:26 PM PST by AntiGuv
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To: NicknamedBob; elmer fudd; blam; SauronOfMordor

And one final point that I made in yesterday's thread: Neanderthal women were hardling wilting lilies such as that ridiculous reproduction above attempts to suggest. A Neanderthal female was about as musclebound as a Cro-Magnon male. A Cro-Magnon trying to rape a Neanderthal might very well wish she'd ran away!!


142 posted on 02/26/2006 12:33:08 PM PST by AntiGuv
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To: AntiGuv
hardly wilting lilies...

*sigh*

And on that note, I'm off to bed!

143 posted on 02/26/2006 12:33:59 PM PST by AntiGuv
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To: AntiGuv
I guess I just don't 'get it', guv.. You admit to a "very strong personal view" that Neanderthals should be labeled a separate species. -- Why is this so important?

Could it be that what you call "the fringe motivations: racists who want a separate evolutionary lineage for each race and creationists who want to abolish any evidence of hominid speciation" -- are not fringe points at all, but your main issue?
You go on:

(And by no stretch am I assigning these motivations to even a majority of those who argue in favor of Neanderthal/Cro-Magnon admixture.
But they are a motivation for some. I did say "fringe"..)

Indeed you did; you call those interested in the origins of race a "fringe". I prefer to call the origins of race a central issue in human anthropology.
-- The Multiregional Model, as Milford Wolpoff presents, is a rational hypotheses, far from a fringe study. -- And I see a Neanderthal "admixture" as an important addition to Wolpoff's theories on racial origins.

We need to discuss 'race', not put it in a closet, seeing we're on the edge of a racial/religious world war.

144 posted on 02/26/2006 12:40:10 PM PST by tpaine
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To: NicknamedBob

One way to guess: were the Neanders as fascinated with the moon (and its cycles) as Hss? Were there lots of marks-of-groups-of-28 on bone chips and cave walls in Neander settlements?

No? That may be the dog that failed to bark, metaphorically speaking.


145 posted on 02/26/2006 12:44:05 PM PST by Phil Connors
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To: AntiGuv

It's clear that the pic is he-neander-she-sapiens.

However if she chooses to do him maybe she ain't so sapient... ;0)


146 posted on 02/26/2006 12:45:39 PM PST by Phil Connors
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To: tpaine

My views are so strong because I think that the evidence is so contrary to the notion of Cro-Magnon/Neanderthal admixture. I am actually an agnostic when it comes to the question of Homo sapiens/Homo erectus admixture over in Asia. That is because I am unaware of such a strong arrangement of evidence contrary to that notion. In fact, I think it's quite plausible that it happened.

So no, I do not reject the notion of admixture automatically simply because I have a problem with the notion on some ideological grounds or whatever. I just think that in the case of Neanderthals the evidence is so glaring against. And riddle me this: if Europeans are descendents of Neanderthals, then why the heck do we have less prominent brow ridges and higher foreheads than other races??


147 posted on 02/26/2006 12:45:56 PM PST by AntiGuv
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To: tpaine

And might I add that I wouldn't have the slightest problem embracing the notion of Neanderthal/Cro-Magnon admixture if evidence to support it were presented. Show me the money! As I said before, "because they were there" just doesn't cut it for me.


148 posted on 02/26/2006 12:47:29 PM PST by AntiGuv
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To: tpaine

And now it really is my bedtime! (I keep erratic hours.) If there's anything more, I'll have to get to it later.


149 posted on 02/26/2006 12:48:21 PM PST by AntiGuv
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To: tpaine

PS. And very quickly, one reason that I'm less inclined to reject the posited admixture in Southeast Asia is because it would've happened at a far earlier stage of Homo sapiens development, and because the archaeological record of that milieu is far more fragmentary.


150 posted on 02/26/2006 12:52:10 PM PST by AntiGuv
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To: tpaine
Oh OK, just one more thing! I did not admit to a very strong personal view that Neanderthals should be labeled a separate species, I stated a very strong personal view that Neanderthals would be labeled a separate species if they were discovered today. Of course it is implicit that I would also say they should be labeled a separate species, but what I'm really saying is that I think the same standards should be applied equally.

In short, my point is that by typical standards of identifying and labelling species I very strongly believe that if Neanderthals were discovered today with all that we know of them they would be labeled a separate species. And my strong personal view, to be sure, is a cognitive view, not an emotional view. It is my assessment of how hominid species are distinguished and identified.

151 posted on 02/26/2006 12:55:55 PM PST by AntiGuv
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To: AntiGuv
I interpreted the reproduction to represent Neanderthal male being his charming and suave self to a Cro-Magnon woman.

Which was what the point of the thread was about.

Besides, I saw the movie "One Million Years BC." It was the dinosaurs that were the problem for the people, not finding recreational opportunities.


152 posted on 02/26/2006 1:25:13 PM PST by NicknamedBob (Islamists say we shouldn't make a mockery of religion -- funny, that's the problem I have with them!)
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To: AntiGuv
So no, I do not reject the notion of admixture automatically simply because I have a problem with the notion on some ideological grounds or whatever. I just think that in the case of Neanderthals the evidence is so glaring against.

Give some thought to the concept that the "evidence is so glaring against", because race is such a glaring political issue.

And riddle me this: if Europeans are descendents [mixtures] of Neanderthals [with modern man], then why the heck do we have less prominent brow ridges and higher foreheads than other races??

Hybrids frequently look quite different than parents. -- Why do mules look totally different than donkeys & mares?

153 posted on 02/26/2006 2:04:40 PM PST by tpaine
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To: Pharmboy

"To: blam; Coyoteman; AntiGuv; Torie"

Just call me "chopped liver". ;')


154 posted on 02/26/2006 7:03:37 PM PST by SunkenCiv (My Sunday Feeling is that Nothing is easy. Goes for the rest of the week too.)
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; StayAt HomeMother; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; asp1; ...
To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

155 posted on 02/26/2006 7:04:04 PM PST by SunkenCiv (My Sunday Feeling is that Nothing is easy. Goes for the rest of the week too.)
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To: Borax Queen; Darksheare

I wonder if the Neanderthals were the first blonde cave women?


156 posted on 02/26/2006 7:07:54 PM PST by phantomworker (It doesn’t matter what other people think or feel or say. “You are the only person who defines you.")
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To: phantomworker

Maybe a mutant red head?


157 posted on 02/26/2006 7:09:38 PM PST by ASA Vet (Those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know.)
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To: ASA Vet

Mutant carrot tops? There should be a cartoon or animae about that. LOL!

We were just on this last thread. Seems related somehow. Apparently blondes are on the endangered species list and will become extinct in approx 200 years.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1585939/posts?


158 posted on 02/26/2006 7:14:13 PM PST by phantomworker (It doesn’t matter what other people think or feel or say. “You are the only person who defines you.")
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To: ASA Vet
"Those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know"

Kind of sucks for all of us here on FR.

159 posted on 02/26/2006 7:21:20 PM PST by Sam Cree (absolute reality) - ("Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein)
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To: patton

neanderthal ping


160 posted on 02/26/2006 7:30:24 PM PST by zakbrow (I'm running out of places to bury the bodies.)
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