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'Torino' vs. 'Turin': Anglicized name of Olympic city wins argument here
The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 02/09/2006 | Ellen Fagg

Posted on 02/10/2006 10:11:00 AM PST by presidio9

Either, Eyether. Neither, nyther. Potato, potaeto. Tomato, tomaeto. Maybe it's time to add the "Torino" vs. "Turin" Olympic face-off to "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off," the Gershwin brothers' classic song of pronunciation differences. Torino, of course, is how Italian natives refer to the city that will open its sports venues to the world this weekend, says Adriano Comollo, the founder of Salt Lake's Italian Center for the West, a nonprofit group that helped create bocce ball courts in Pioneer Park, as well as promoting all things Italiano. But there's no confusion for natives, like Comollo, who understand that it's linguistically correct for Americans to refer to Turin, which is the Anglicized name

of his hometown, just as the city of Roma is known outside of Italy as Rome. Turin is how The Associated Press (AP) and newspapers that follow the news cooperative's stylebook - including The Salt Lake Tribune - will refer to the Olympic city, according to an explanation by the AP's sports editor, Terry Taylor. "We use Turin in accordance with our long-standing style to use English names on English-language wires," Taylor explained last month in a wire service story. "It's the Shroud of Turin, for instance, not the Shroud of Torino. And when the World Cup comes to Germany this summer, we will write that games will be played in Munich, not Muenchen. "Of course, in the interest of accuracy, we will not Anglicize the name in full references to the Olympic organizing committee, which uses Torino, and we will not change Torino to Turin in quotations." So, the question of the pronunciation of the Northern Italy city would seem mostly settled - for Americans, anyway - except for the simple beauty of the original Italian pronunciation, which charmed Dick Ebersol, the head honcho of NBC Sports. ''When I went there for the first time two weeks after they got the Games in the summer of '99, I was just swept away with how that sounded, 'Torino,' '' Ebersole told television critics last month while promoting the network's upcoming coverage. "It just rolls off your mouth. It talks about a wonderful part of the world. It has a romanticism to it. And I just thought that that was a wonderful way to name these Games." So local TV stations, like KSL and KUTV, have elected to go with the authentic Italian pronunciation, as has the U.S. Olympic Committee, while local NPR station KUER is sticking with AP style. While it might seem we're being ''ugly Americans'' when we translate a city's proper name into English, that's simply the way languages work, says Marianna Di Paolo, a University of Utah professor of linguistics. Di Paolo grew up in Colorado, but her first language was the southern Italian dialect of Abruzzesse. "We Anglicize everything," Di Paolo says. "That's what happens when languages borrow. It's not necessarily arrogant, and it's not denigrating Italians to do it. It's an attempt to have the word work well in our language. Every language does it." One linguistic puzzle might be how the name of the ancient city, founded by the Roman Emperor Augustus about 2,000 years ago to protect the state's northern borders, was translated into English with the "uhr" sound of Turin from the "o" sound of Torino. One guess, according to Steven Sternfeld, a U. linguistics professor: "Many of the names we have for Italian cities we adopted not from the Italians but from the French." And just as every language is likely to transform its own borrowed words, most Italians will understand when Americans refer to the northwestern city of Turin, says Utah transplant Emanuele Bobbio, executive secretary of the Italian Consulate in Salt Lake City. "That pronunciation is not correct but the Italian people, who live in the middle of Europe, are very open and very helpful. We talk a lot by body language because for many, many years, we have contacts with many, many cultures and many, many languages." ---


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 2006olympics; chat; italy; olympics; torino; turin
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To: SoothingDave

Ever heard of "Russia, Ohio"? Care to guess how the locals promounce it?


61 posted on 02/10/2006 12:24:18 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
I know how they pronounce Lima, Ohio. Russia, I don't know.

SD

62 posted on 02/10/2006 12:25:51 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Roo-shee

Lima, OH is, as you say, not the same as Lima Peru.

I know a young lady who used to work at a French restaurant in Versailles, OH. Apparently, they would answer the phone "Hello, this is The Inn at Vair-SIGH, in Vur-SAYLES ..."

63 posted on 02/10/2006 12:31:42 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: carrier-aviator
Well, here in Dee-troit, that's what we call the po-leece.

Quick Dee-troit test:

Pronounce the next three street names correctly:
Gratiot
schoenherr
Dequindre

Mispronounce any of these incorrectly, and people know instantly that you are not from Dee-troit

64 posted on 02/10/2006 12:43:52 PM PST by Celtic Conservative (Billy Tauzin about Louisiana: "half the state is under water, the other half is under indictment")
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To: Red Badger
West of the Rockies....You're on the air..........

Uh, yeah, hi art...

65 posted on 02/10/2006 12:46:33 PM PST by Celtic Conservative (Billy Tauzin about Louisiana: "half the state is under water, the other half is under indictment")
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To: SoothingDave

And (if you are referring to New England), let's not forget the Thames River, Burr-lin, Mos-koo, Madge-rid...

What's funny is when placed named after people change depending on where you are. For instance, there's KAHR-niggie Hall in New York, and care-NEG-gie Mellon Univesity in Pittsburg.

Or "Quinzee," MA... House-tin Street, New York... and my favorite, Barthelona, Spain, believe it or not.


66 posted on 02/10/2006 12:47:45 PM PST by dangus
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To: ArrogantBustard

>> Lima, OH is, as you say, not the same as Lima Peru. <<

BEANS!


67 posted on 02/10/2006 12:49:32 PM PST by dangus
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To: presidio9

I've noticed some people will switch into a Spanish accent to say "NEE-hah-RAGHHHH-waw", instead of just saying "Nicka ra gwa". Why do they do that? Are they putting on airs?

I don't expect a French speaker to switch into an American accent to say "United States" instead of "Etats Unis".


68 posted on 02/10/2006 12:50:06 PM PST by OkieDokie1000
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To: presidio9
One linguistic puzzle might be how the name of the ancient city, founded by the Roman Emperor Augustus about 2,000 years ago to protect the state's northern borders, was translated into English with the "uhr" sound of Turin from the "o" sound of Torino. One guess, according to Steven Sternfeld, a U. linguistics professor: "Many of the names we have for Italian cities we adopted not from the Italians but from the French."

Close. My understanding is Turin is similar to the name in Piedmontese, which is heavily influenced by French.

69 posted on 02/10/2006 12:50:39 PM PST by colorado tanker (We need more "chicken-bleep Democrats" in the Senate!)
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To: dangus
And (if you are referring to New England), let's not forget the Thames River, Burr-lin, Mos-koo, Madge-rid... What's funny is when placed named after people change depending on where you are. For instance, there's KAHR-niggie Hall in New York, and care-NEG-gie Mellon Univesity in Pittsburg.

I am actually from Pittsburgh and know very well how New Yorkers don't know the right way to pronounce Carnegie.

SD

70 posted on 02/10/2006 12:55:13 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: bourbon; Map Kernow

I always said Allemagne,,what's arong with you guys.


and Angle-Land....

and Xochiquetzal ...I always nail that one!

and Alba


and....Kernow


I could go on and on...


71 posted on 02/10/2006 1:08:27 PM PST by wardaddy (Guns, God, Abortion is Murder, Private Property, Borders,My Culture, Break Islam....any questions)
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To: Celtic Conservative

I sure hope the first word doesn't get pronounced, "nice beaver."

Oh, and for the record, I can go so far with regional pronounciations. For instance, if someone's from the West Coast Portland, fine, I'll say Oh-riggin, instead of orrigahn.

But anyone from St. Louis (and please, say it English, -- Saynt Lewis -- or be pretentious and say it French -- Sahnl Wee -- but please, Saynt Looey just sounds stoopid!), if they tell me I've gotta pronounce it "Mizzuhrah," so help me, I'm gonna beat them over the head with the stump of their own arm until they assent to "Nuh Yawk" and "Nuh Joyzee." There's a difference between an accent and a pronunication, and I'm not gonna mimic anyone's accent.

Oh, and it ain't "Kunnecktickutt." It's "Kinnettickitt." Just like "Kinetic" energy. That's not just a blue-blood pronunciation like saying "Wistah" for "Worcestor"; Connecticut is named for the Connetquot. And "Worcestor," without the blue-blood accent is still pronounced like "Worse" plus "stir." Break it apart and it really does make sence.


72 posted on 02/10/2006 1:10:17 PM PST by dangus
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To: dangus

And speaking of Florida, I was born and raised in Miami and I still remember the controversy over wheather it should be prounced Miamee or Miama. Miama was the old native pronounciation. I grew up calling it Miama. Sadly, Miamee won the battle. The old timers still call it Miama though.


73 posted on 02/10/2006 1:45:33 PM PST by mc5cents
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To: dangus
Oh, and it ain't "Kunnecktickutt." It's "Kinnettickitt."

That ain't how you pronounce Kentucky.

SD

74 posted on 02/10/2006 1:47:42 PM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave

>> I am actually from Pittsburgh and know very well how New Yorkers don't know the right way to pronounce Carnegie. <<

Actually, I tried seeing if I could find any definitive answer to how the Scots would have pronounded it. I couldn't. But I'll tell you this, not counting "Mc/Mac" as a syllable, the only clan name I could find with an accent on the middle syllable was "Buchanan."


75 posted on 02/10/2006 3:14:29 PM PST by dangus
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To: SoothingDave

>> That ain't how you pronounce Kentucky. <<

No, apparently it's pronounced, "Luvell." :^D


76 posted on 02/10/2006 3:15:35 PM PST by dangus
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To: jaydubya2
Here's a pet peeve of mine. I'm an amateur astronomer and that planet just before Neptune is pronounced "Urine-Us" with the accent on the first syllable. It is not pronounce "Your-anus" no matter how many times schoolboys like to pronounce it that way.
77 posted on 02/10/2006 3:25:24 PM PST by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: Celtic Conservative
Quick Dee-troit test:

Pronounce the next three street names correctly:
Gratiot
schoenherr
Dequindre

I grew up in Port Huron, so I'll take a shot at those:

Gratiot - GRASH-it
Schoenherr - SHAYN-ur
Dequindre - duh-KWIN-der

How'd I do?

BTW, though I didn't realize it while living there, when I visit Port Huron today it's very easy to hear the locals pronounce their city "Port Urine" ;-)

78 posted on 02/10/2006 10:07:10 PM PST by Denver Ditdat (No Islam, Know Peace.)
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To: muir_redwoods
It is not pronounce "Your-anus" no matter how many times schoolboys like to pronounce it that way.

Ah, jeez, then that ruins the punchline of this joke:

Q - Why don't observatories like to hire gay astronomers?
A - Because all they want to look at is Uranus.

79 posted on 02/10/2006 10:12:00 PM PST by Denver Ditdat (No Islam, Know Peace.)
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