Posted on 02/10/2006 10:11:00 AM PST by presidio9
Either, Eyether. Neither, nyther. Potato, potaeto. Tomato, tomaeto. Maybe it's time to add the "Torino" vs. "Turin" Olympic face-off to "Let's Call the Whole Thing Off," the Gershwin brothers' classic song of pronunciation differences. Torino, of course, is how Italian natives refer to the city that will open its sports venues to the world this weekend, says Adriano Comollo, the founder of Salt Lake's Italian Center for the West, a nonprofit group that helped create bocce ball courts in Pioneer Park, as well as promoting all things Italiano. But there's no confusion for natives, like Comollo, who understand that it's linguistically correct for Americans to refer to Turin, which is the Anglicized name
of his hometown, just as the city of Roma is known outside of Italy as Rome. Turin is how The Associated Press (AP) and newspapers that follow the news cooperative's stylebook - including The Salt Lake Tribune - will refer to the Olympic city, according to an explanation by the AP's sports editor, Terry Taylor. "We use Turin in accordance with our long-standing style to use English names on English-language wires," Taylor explained last month in a wire service story. "It's the Shroud of Turin, for instance, not the Shroud of Torino. And when the World Cup comes to Germany this summer, we will write that games will be played in Munich, not Muenchen. "Of course, in the interest of accuracy, we will not Anglicize the name in full references to the Olympic organizing committee, which uses Torino, and we will not change Torino to Turin in quotations." So, the question of the pronunciation of the Northern Italy city would seem mostly settled - for Americans, anyway - except for the simple beauty of the original Italian pronunciation, which charmed Dick Ebersol, the head honcho of NBC Sports. ''When I went there for the first time two weeks after they got the Games in the summer of '99, I was just swept away with how that sounded, 'Torino,' '' Ebersole told television critics last month while promoting the network's upcoming coverage. "It just rolls off your mouth. It talks about a wonderful part of the world. It has a romanticism to it. And I just thought that that was a wonderful way to name these Games." So local TV stations, like KSL and KUTV, have elected to go with the authentic Italian pronunciation, as has the U.S. Olympic Committee, while local NPR station KUER is sticking with AP style. While it might seem we're being ''ugly Americans'' when we translate a city's proper name into English, that's simply the way languages work, says Marianna Di Paolo, a University of Utah professor of linguistics. Di Paolo grew up in Colorado, but her first language was the southern Italian dialect of Abruzzesse. "We Anglicize everything," Di Paolo says. "That's what happens when languages borrow. It's not necessarily arrogant, and it's not denigrating Italians to do it. It's an attempt to have the word work well in our language. Every language does it." One linguistic puzzle might be how the name of the ancient city, founded by the Roman Emperor Augustus about 2,000 years ago to protect the state's northern borders, was translated into English with the "uhr" sound of Turin from the "o" sound of Torino. One guess, according to Steven Sternfeld, a U. linguistics professor: "Many of the names we have for Italian cities we adopted not from the Italians but from the French." And just as every language is likely to transform its own borrowed words, most Italians will understand when Americans refer to the northwestern city of Turin, says Utah transplant Emanuele Bobbio, executive secretary of the Italian Consulate in Salt Lake City. "That pronunciation is not correct but the Italian people, who live in the middle of Europe, are very open and very helpful. We talk a lot by body language because for many, many years, we have contacts with many, many cultures and many, many languages." ---
For this very reason I always refer to Nu-ku-lar power.
West of the Rockies....You're on the air..........
>> How about PO-lice, and DEE-troit? :-) <<
oh, PUHHHleeeze!
Seriously, CA, you make a good point: French words (and Police, Detroit, and Offense are all French words) create a difficulty: In French, syllables are accented evenly, or the unaccented syllable is subsumed entirely. Usually, in American English, we subsume the unaccented syllable (P'lice, D'troit, etc.). In certain regions, however, because such syllables are not incidental to the root word, the first syllable is emphasized (POHlice, DEEtroit, etc.)
In the case of offense and defense, however, I think the general rule is to subsume the first syllable. But under certain circumstances, including sports, I guess the first syllable is not subsumed, and, hence it is accented, so that it can be clearly heard.
For instance, in court, it's plain that a person represents a defense, whereas an action represents an offense, so we subsume the first syllable; the d'FENSE rests, but the ofFENSE doesn't.
In sports, the words are almost always spoken to delineate between the offense and the defense, hence, the first syllabe is usually accented.
The same -- generally -- holds true in British English. The verb form tends to accent (that's "ack-CENT") the second syllable.
I didn't hear one person at the Super Bowl refer to it as "Day-twaa" ;-)
SD
There's no way that it's pronounced Jenjiss Khan. The fact that there is an "h" after the "g" necessitates the use of a hard "g" sound (like the first "g" in "Garage."
Soft "g"s occur only following an "i" or an "e," although sometimes the "g" is still hard, as in "get"
Hence, the word is "JengGuiss Khan," or "GuengGuiss Khan," but never "Jenjiss Khan."
>> So, can we agree now that it will be the Peking Olympics? <<
No. I'll never agree that it will a Chi-com olympics of any sort!
And there lies the answer. The media wants to minimize Google hits on "Shroud of Turin."
>> I didn't hear one person at the Super Bowl refer to it as "Day-twaa" ;-) <<
Ha-ha! I can still never bring myself to say "Battn Rooj," though. New Orleans is one thing... they stuck the positively limey word, "new" in front of it, so how could I possibly say, "Noo ohrlah"? (The word, "N'ahrlins" breaks me up!)
Nueva Jorka!
>> So, since translation of placenames is in vogue, why, on US-produced maps, isn't Argentina listed as "Silverland," or its capital as "Good Airs," or Rio de Janeiro, Brazil as "River of January," or Montevideo, Uruguay as "Mountain View," or Santiago, Chile as "St. James," or La Paz, Bolivia as "Peace," etc. <<
I'm planning to tour Europe. I figure I'll visit Big Hot Dog (Frankfurt), Little Hot Dog (Vienna), Toilet Water (Cologne), Bubbly (Champagne), Ground Beef (Hamburg). I'll stay clear of Mini-Cabbage!
HHOK...
I like to stick to good ol' American states like Green Mountain (not Vermont!), Colors (not Colorado!), Flowers (not Florida!), and Mountains (not Montana!).
You owe the oracle a really small can of pop from Duluth, a New Outfit, a date with Mr. Ippi's wife, a land of un-deflowered ladies, and a 2000-pound load of laundry.
Last winter, I was thinking of starting a "Torino Watch." Why? Katie Couric was broadcasting from the Salt Lake City Olympics, and she was looking forward to the next Winter Olympics, to be held in . . . "Torino," she said. Why she said "Torino," instead of good ol' Turin, is shrouded in mystery. Would-be sophisticates are always saying "Torino" instead of Turin and "Milano" instead of Milan. But, oddly, they don't say Roma — except "when in Rome," presumably — and they don't say "Venezia" (Venice), "Firenze" (Florence), or "Napoli" (Naples).
...
The story's complicated, but Bangkok, to Thais, is not merely "Bangkok." In fact, it's not "Bangkok" at all. The capital has a long, long formal name, and, to make matters even more interesting, the Thai language acknowledges no spaces between words (within a sentence or concept). So, I give you "Krungthepmahanakhonamonrattanakosinmahintharaayuthayamahadilokphopnoppharatratchathani buriromudomratchan iwetmahasathanamonpimanawatansathitsakkathattiyawitsanukamprasit."
SD
Oops... Don't even tell me. Colorado is "the Color Red," not "Colors" (Colores).
... and come to think of it, I think "Florida" is "flower-filled," not "Flowers."
SD
>> Shoulda stuck to "Penn's Woods" ;-) <<
Naaahhh...
Untranslated all those places (Mountain View, Penn's Woods, etc.) sound like retirement homes. :^)
Dan knew that "harass" was one word.
Yukyukyuk...
Seriously, I think there is a shred of truth to that.
And not too far from the truth, either!
At least we here are generally pretty good Anglicisers. We let Duquesne slide by, but turned Versailles into ver-Sales and Dubois into DEW-boys.
SD
Actaully, I think "Colorado" means "bloody sleeves" or something like that.
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