Posted on 11/08/2005 6:30:46 AM PST by Tolik
HH: I'm now joined by Victor Davis Hanson, military historian extraordinaire, and you can read him every Friday at National Review Online. Victor, good to have you back on the program.
VDH: Glad to be here, Hugh.
HH: You passed through Paris recently. When?
VDH: Yesterday.
HH: And did you get a sense of crisis as you walked around De Gaulle Airport?
VDH: I did. I've never been through more security. It was...I think I had to show my passport on five different occasions.
HH: Did you go into the city at all, or was this just a change of planes?
VDH: No. I was on the way from Lisbon, so we flew over it in the morning, and then we landed. And I stayed two or three hours at the airport.
HH: What is your assessment of the significance of what is underway, the Francefada, or the Intifada in France as we speak?
VDH: Well, there's two messages. One, that we in America can see where an unassimilated un-integrated a population goes, and where that leads to, it leads to a sort of an apartheid. And two, we can see what happens with an EU that can't create real economic growth, and has high stagnant unemployment of 10%. And three, this is I think a little bit more controversial, that we can see what happens to a society that doesn't ask the immigrant to integrate, and the immigrant doesn't feel that he has to integrate, or to learn the language, or learn the traditions of the West. So you have this Orwellian situation when thousands of people are rioting, you want to say let me get this straight. You do not want to go back to the country, an hour or two away by air, that you praise in the abstract, but you surely want to stay in a country that you want to burn down to the concrete. It doesn't make any sense, other than this strong, psychological urges of envy, jealousy, wanting something you can't have. Then, besides all that landscape, you get the impression there's something very wrong in Europe that has high unemployment and generous joblessness benefits, so that it allows people not really to have to go look for a job, because there isn't any, but to stay home and sort of nurse these wounds, with enough money to survive.
HH: Now Victor Davis Hanson, you've studied ancient civilizations, you've studied modern civilizations. When radicalization occurs, and you start having this economic dislocation, and these sorts of riots, does this provide fertile ground for the Islamist to go in and proselytize, and recruit?
VDH: Absolutely. So what's going to happen if you have a hundred thousand of these youths, there's going to be a small cohort. Who knows how many? One, two, three percent. But given the aggregate number of protesters is so large, you may find a hundred or two hundred or three hundred that will want to take this one step further. And if you're already now shooting and burning cars, what's to stop you? You've crossed that barrier, so what's to stop you from blowing up somebody in a...and it'll all depend on the reaction of the French police and the French government. If they can put this down and show that there's zero tolerance for this, then they can reverse the course a little bit. If they appease it, and try to find so-called root causes, which are there, but nevertheless, during a riot, you don't want talk about them.
HH: What's interesting is Chirac and de Villipin have not done anything significant like calling out the army. They are so far from zero tolerance. It's more like 95% tolerance.
VDH: Yeah. I was reading a lot of French papers, you know, when I was in Europe the last three weeks, and I think I would...I guess I would sum it up as just absolute bafflement. It's almost as if don't these people know that in the abstract, we help Hamas? Don't we know that we appease the Arab world? And why in the world since we are so pro-Arab, would they care whether they have a job in Paris or not? We are beyond criticism, because we're against the United States, and here they are attacking us, of all people.
HH: What took you to Europe, Victor? Were you there meeting with government officials? Or was this just leisure?
VDH: I met some, but I was mostly lecturing on some lecture tours on the ancient world.
HH: Are they aware of their demographic time bomb?
VDH: Oh, yeah. I just talked to an official in the Portuguese government. Absolutely. Whether it's...they're absolutely aware of it, and they're absolutely aware that it leads nowhere, because what it does is for the menial type of jobs that are necessary, it brings in immigrants, and yet those immigrants are not going to be assimilated. And then, we have all these stereotypes about Americans from Europe, and they don't...we're overweight, we're rude. You go to Europe, all of these people are smoking more than we are, they have smaller homes than we do, or they pay more for gas. They're ruder in line, and it's just...it's just a very different society than what the blue states on our coasts idolize.
HH: What's the consequence for American of this violence?
VDH: I think it's two-fold. I think it tells us that with our own un-policed borders, and ten to fifteen million illegal aliens in the United States, that we can immigrate and assimilate them much better, because of our egalitarian, populist traditions, if we get serious. And we do not want to have a MECHA, ATZLAN, La Raza culture dividing us. That's one. And two, I think it should really bring a little sobriety about Europe. We've had this nostalgia, this idea that the Europeans have transcended all of our problems. In fact, economically, militarily, politically, socially, they're in a complete mess, and I got that the last three and half weeks.
HH: Now, you're a student of European history as well as ancient history, and Le Pen was the run-off loser to Chirac in the last French presidential election. He is an arch-right winger. Some people call him a fascist. He denies that. He has been relatively quiet. He was in Cypress last week, making some comments about this. What is the totalitarian, or the fascist temptation here? Do you worry about that as well?
VDH: I do, because the history, whether we look at the unworkable Weimar to Hitler, or whether we look at the Spanish revolution to Franco, or whatever radical swing we see in Europe, there's always this...because they are so far left, and when the left proves unworkable or chaotic, then the answer is always a man on a horse. So we have to watch this very carefully, because there will come out of the shadows a French politician to say look, I'll put a lid on all this. And the same way, if you look at the legislation that's been proposed in the Netherlands, that would never stand up in our U.S. Supreme Court. So while the American people were apologizing for the Patriot Act, to their left-wing European friends, they have not a clue that the legislation a lot of European parliaments is so far to the right of anything that we could imagine, such as deporting a naturalized citizen, without a hearing, as if an Arab-American were in the United States, and somebody accused him of terrorism, they just sent him back to Egypt. We could not do that.
HH: What do you mean by man on a horse? Explain to the audience, Victor Davis Hanson.
VDH: The idea that there will be somebody who will promise them to bring order, to bring back respect, to bring back reverence for tradition, and to get the economy, to get the society back on an even keel, in the European tradition. And that'll be quite unexpected by us, because we keep thinking that they're left-wing and post-modern, but we don't read their history. When they have a great susceptibility toward aristocratic order and stability. And to be honest, right-wing dictators, they seem to prop up throughout European history.
HH: Last question for you, Victor Davis Hanson. You've spent a lot of time in Europe on campuses, and you know what's going on there now. If an American parent came up to you and said my son or daughter wants to go spend a semester, spring semester 2006, in Europe, what would you tell them?
VDH: I'd say go ahead. I think it's very good to learn these problems. I'd suggest maybe they go to somewhere like Portugal or Italy, that are more pro-American. Or even Holland or Denmark, and I'd be kind of...I'd be a little wary of sending them without proper guidance and instruction to France, or Germany, where they're going to be imbued with an anti-American hatred.
HH: Victor Davis Hanson, always a pleasure. Thank you, very much.
End of interview.
Let me know if you want in or out.
Links: FR Index of his articles: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=victordavishanson
His website: http://victorhanson.com/ NRO archive: http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson-archive.asp
Thats exactly what liberal ideology believes.
VDH: The idea that there will be somebody who will promise them to bring order, to bring back respect, to bring back reverence for tradition, and to get the economy, to get the society back on an even keel, in the European tradition. And that'll be quite unexpected by us, because we keep thinking that they're left-wing and post-modern, but we don't read their history. When they have a great susceptibility toward aristocratic order and stability. And to be honest, right-wing dictators, they seem to prop up throughout European history.
Enter, the Anti-Christ!!
Thanks for the ping!
"I think it should really bring a little sobriety about Europe. We've had this nostalgia, this idea that the Europeans have transcended all of our problems. In fact, economically, militarily, politically, socially, they're in a complete mess, and I got that the last three and half weeks."
Gee, if Moi Kerri had been elected, we might be experience the same great French experience here in America. One can see Moi Kerri as President nuancing Muslim Jihadists burning cars and buildings in America until we had no cars or buildings.
My daughter spent spring 2005 in Italy. They are not pro-American. But she had a great semester anyway.
bttt
And a "tip" to bnnelson44!
(ping)
-b-
What parent in their right mind would let their kid go to France for a semester?
"They're ruder in line, and it's just...it's just a very different society than what the blue states on our coasts idolize."
So France isn't looking like the utopia the libs thought it was I guess.
The seven most serious race riots were those which occurred in Wilmington, N. C. (1898), Atlanta, Ga. (1906), Springfield, Ill. (1908), East St. Louis) Ill. (1917), Chicago, Ill. (1919), Tulsa, Okla. (1921) and Detroit, Mich. (1943).
This entire period is marked by segregation, enshrined by law and supported by Plessy. Astute readers will note that while only one riot is listed during the Roaring 20s (a period of tremendous economic growth), more significantly, none are listed during the Depression.
If there was ever a period of time when 33%+ of many states populations were shut out of any chance of participation in the wider society and there was 25%+ unemployment, this would be that time.
In point of fact, the most significant race riots took place during the 60s - after the Civil Rights Act and during a period of growth similar to the 1920s.
A lot of people rip Hugh Hewitt her for being such a Bush cheerleader, but he consistenly gets interesting people on the phone, like VDH, Mark Steyn, etc., which is why I listen.
Au contraire, Victor, it makes a lot of sense!
In the First Crusade, at the end of the 11th century, the Franks invaded the heart of the Islamic world.
Muslims do not forget.
They particularly do not forget humiliation.
And they have not forgotten, for once second, their commitment to the establishment of a world-wide Islamic theocracy, with the koran as the constitution, the shariah as international law, and dhimmitude or death for all non-believers--nor have they forgotten their commitment to jihad as the means of establishing this objective.
They have not forgotten the First Crusade--or any of the Crusades!
They have not forgotten that it was the Franks who invaded!
Now they have invaded France itself--the homeland of the hated Franks!
What could be more sanctified revenge than to begin the final phase of the world-wide jihad by conquering the homeland of the Franks!?
As for the French--they have a deeply imbedded deathwish--and the jihadis are their delighted (pun intended) means of manifesting it.
Thanks. Can't you see Algore, or Ketchupman, sitting in the Oval Office mumbling to himself while Washington burns.
We are not out of the woods, but life would be a lot uglier here if either of those two was the Commander in Chief.
Excellent assessment by VDH.
I don't take pleasure at all from the misery of others. Unfortunately this is a huge "I told you so" for the goody goody lib's that chose appeasement than tough, but real solutions.
HH: Now, you're a student of European history as well as ancient history, and Le Pen was the run-off loser to Chirac in the last French presidential election. He is an arch-right winger. Some people call him a fascist. He denies that. He has been relatively quiet. He was in Cypress last week, making some comments about this. What is the totalitarian, or the fascist temptation here? Do you worry about that as well?
VDH: I do, because the history, whether we look at the unworkable Weimar to Hitler, or whether we look at the Spanish revolution to Franco, or whatever radical swing we see in Europe, there's always this...because they are so far left, and when the left proves unworkable or chaotic, then the answer is always a man on a horse. So we have to watch this very carefully, because there will come out of the shadows a French politician to say look, I'll put a lid on all this. And the same way, if you look at the legislation that's been proposed in the Netherlands, that would never stand up in our U.S. Supreme Court. So while the American people were apologizing for the Patriot Act, to their left-wing European friends, they have not a clue that the legislation a lot of European parliaments is so far to the right of anything that we could imagine, such as deporting a naturalized citizen, without a hearing, as if an Arab-American were in the United States, and somebody accused him of terrorism, they just sent him back to Egypt. We could not do that.
(as I've mentioned before) Ralph Peters has a very good chapter in his book Beyond Baghdad, called "Hidden Unities" inwhich he talks about this, (How/Will Europe respond to Muslims in Europe...think progrom)
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