Posted on 09/24/2005 2:11:22 PM PDT by mwfsu84
Listening to a conservative radio talk show today, I heard the host bash Bush and the GOP on their lax immigration policies. He stated that this issue threatened to tear the GOP apart. And he isn't the first person to make that prediction.
I'm a staunch Republican who would hate to see such a dire prediction come true. I also admit in many ways I share Bush's views on the subject. Since he has done a poor job defending his views, I'd like to explain my own. Let's have a discussion and see if we can find some common ground. Or perhaps I am misinformed on the subject, in which case, I'd appreciate your input. I'd like to find some common ground...because I don't want this issue to destroy the conservative movement. Only civil responses, please. I didn't come here to fight.
I've always believed that America should be open to anyone who wants to work hard, live in peace. And the vast majority of immigrants who cross our southern border fit that description. I know several small business owners who hire them - both legally, by the way. They say they can't find Americans do the jobs they hire immigrants for. And these owners are extremely pleased with the immigrants' work ethic. They bust their tails and never complain.
Hispanic immigrants, for the most part, place a high value on their families. That's why many of them come here. A high percentage of them are practicing Catholics.
In my view, these are not the kind of people we should be turning away.
As I understand it, those who oppose illegal immigration do so for the following reasons:
1. It's in violation of the law.
2. Illegal immigrants use up services they don't pay for - schools, health care, etc.
3. Open borders leave us vulnerable to terrorists.
4. Many immigrants are violent criminals.
There is some validity to all of these arguments. Here are my responses.
1. Most of the immigrants here are in violation of the law. But like Prohibition in the 1920's, or the 55 mile an hour speed limit, it's a law that can't be effectively enforced.
We share an 1800 mile border with Mexico. What kind of barrier - physical or human - would possibly suffice to seal us off?
2. It's true that many Hispanics use services they didn't pay for. And I would hold their employers accountable for that. Employers should be the ones to report immigrants, taking out taxes from their payrolls. If not, the government should shut those businesses down, or fine them severely.
3. Open borders leave us vulnerable to terrorism. While I agree with this to an extent, I'd be more worried of terrorists crossing our border with Canada...a much longer border than the one with Mexico, by the way.
As I see it, there are two ways we can fight terrorists. We can seal off our borders, which is a defensive move. Or we can go on the offenisve, as we're doing in Afghanistan and Iraq right now. But we can't do both. Doing both would be cost prohibitive.
I would suggest the reason we haven't suffered a major terrorists attack in this country in over four years - despite our open borders - is because our strategy of going on the offensive is working.
4. Many illegal immigrants are violent criminals. I have no doubt this is true, but I'd like to know what the percentage is. As I said before, I believe the vast majority of individuals don't fit this description.
Hispanics are already the largest minority in America. Who they vote for in the future will determine which party stays in power.
LOL
They let the corporations build stuff in the community in lieu of taxation. Been going on since the Civil War.
Those who treasure these values are loyal American conservatives. Those who treat these values casually or view them disparagingly are not true conservatives nor are they loyal Americans.
Simple as that.
McJobs aren't going to get outsourced.
However, if illegals get hired there, it damages the labor market for teenagers, many of whom are working part time for extra spending money or for bills.
When I was in High School I has a few friends who worked there, though Micky Ds isn't known to hire illegals, at least over here.
But other jobs that can't be outsourced but can be given to illegal labor thus damaging American Labor or Native Labor are custodial work and many numerious physical intensive on the spot types of work.
I was fairly clear in stating that I didn't have all the answers, and that I was looking for enlightenment on this issue...maybe you didn't read that.
Again we go back to the Democrat idea of paying all Americans a living wage, which I'm against. Who do you think will pick up the costs for that? Have you seen the effect high gas prices are having on the economy? Now throw in skyrocketing food and housing prices. Do you remember what the late 1970's were like?
How much money do you think it will take to get an American to do a migrant worker's job? How many migrant workers could you hire for the money an American would demand?
High inflation can have just as devestating an effect on the economy as high unemployment. And if we make it hard for companies to get cheap labor, we'll have both.
There has to be a compromise. I believe companies should be held accountable for the illegals they employ, and I also believe illegals should pay for the services they use. You could treat industries notorious for hiring illegals the same way the government treats tobacco companies - by imposing an extra tax on them. ALL companies in that particular industy - construction for example - would have to pay that tax, whether they hire illegals or not.
I'm not crazy about taxes at all. But it would have a less detrimental affect on our economy than the elimination of small businesses altogether.
It may have eroded our manufacturing base, but many of the jobs illegals take are jobs that can not be removed, outsourced or transferred.
These are jobs, where wage growth would naturally occur, efficiently, if illegal labor was not induced into the market.
If you need a janitor or gardener, you will need one no matter what, you can't transfer that garderns job to India, and you can't eradicate it (unless you eradicate the garden), that would make labor and the markets competitive for fair wages.
Adding illegal labor to the mix, allows for leverage to keep those wages down, either by forcing the gardener to compete wage wise against folks who aren't here legally, or the native born American loses the job outright to the illegal alien.
Could a janitor in the 1990's buy a house, a car, put a little money away in his savings account? Maybe if he or she were a supervisor or the owner of a small janitorial service.
There are other jobs in the service economy too that I fear we are ignoring. Scientists, doctors, engineers for example, are all high wage jobs that have a high percentage of foreigners filling them.
No there doesn't.
What needs to be done is, for once, to get serious about enforcing our immigration laws. That along with walls, deportation, heavily fining employers, elimination of all benefits including, especially, schools and medical facilities, and whatever else will put a stop to the invading lawbreakers from Mexico (and other countries using the Mexico route).
So it can be done legally. And don’t be fooled, the American workers are there if the pay is right.
And these owners are extremely pleased with the immigrants' work ethic. They bust their tails and never complain.
Hispanic immigrants, for the most part, place a high value on their families. That's why many of them come here. A high percentage of them are practicing Catholics.
I agree the vast majority are good hard working folks just looking to get ahead for themselves and their families. America will be a better place for having invited many to immigrate.
Still, it must be our decision as to who and how many we allow to immigrate.
It’s also not fair to allow the illegals to enter with a wink and nudge, is there a faster road to poverty than being in the country illegally?
In all of recorded history name any success stories where countries brought in, or allowed themselves to be overrun with guest workers and/or illegal immigrants.
1. Most of the immigrants here are in violation of the law. But like Prohibition in the 1920's, or the 55 mile an hour speed limit, it's a law that can't be effectively enforced.
We share an 1800 mile border with Mexico. What kind of barrier - physical or human - would possibly suffice to seal us off?
Give employers the necessary tools to verify employee’s immigration/citizenship status, then fine employers who hire illegals and mandatory jail time for repeat offenders. Get rid of “anchor baby” laws. Problem solved.
2. It's true that many Hispanics use services they didn't pay for. And I would hold their employers accountable for that. Employers should be the ones to report immigrants, taking out taxes from their payrolls. If not, the government should shut those businesses down, or fine them severely.
Hold employers of illegals responsible to reimburse the taxpayers for all expenses incurred by taxpayers for their illegal employees. Make this incumbent on the company and the owners personally and make such judgments stand even through a bankruptcy.
3. Open borders leave us vulnerable to terrorism. While I agree with this to an extent, I'd be more worried of terrorists crossing our border with Canada...a much longer border than the one with Mexico, by the way.
When our Southern border is under control, it will free up resources to allow us to keep a better watch over our Northern border.
As I see it, there are two ways we can fight terrorists. We can seal off our borders, which is a defensive move. Or we can go on the offensive, as we're doing in Afghanistan and Iraq right now. But we can't do both. Doing both would be cost prohibitive.
I reject your premise, we can do both.
I would suggest the reason we haven't suffered a major terrorists attack in this country in over four years - despite our open borders - is because our strategy of going on the offensive is working.
I agree we have done well by fighting and defeating them on their turf instead of ours, we’ve probably had a bit of good luck as well, but we’re still vulnerable.
4. Many illegal immigrants are violent criminals. I have no doubt this is true, but I'd like to know what the percentage is. As I said before, I believe the vast majority of individuals don't fit this description.
In any case, we must control the flow of immigrants we allow into our country.
Hispanics are already the largest minority in America. Who they vote for in the future will determine which party stays in power.
Exactly, we must not allow illegal immigrants from Mexico to run politics in America!
Meanwhile, the worker to retiree ratio is 3 to 1. When the boomers start to retire, it will get worse.
There are probably at least one billion foreigners around the world who would like to come to the United States and who want to work hard and live in peace. But we can't let them all come here because uncontrolled immigration would destroy our country. Would you like to live in a United States with a population of one billion or more? That's why we have immigration laws, so that we can control how many foreigners come here and which foreigners come here.
First, before these hurricanes, we had 4.9% unemployment in this country. So, despite all of the outsourcing, there's no shortage of jobs.
Second, aside from consturction work, for this country to maintain its standard of living, we're looking at the wrong end. It's jobs in the sciences and science-related professions that need to grow. Many employers in these industries are forced to import workers from abroad, because they can't find qualified Americans.
I should have just copied and pasted your entire post just so people might read it again.
Street corners from sea to shinning sea.
What do you mean by "migrant worker" and what do you mean by "a migrant worker's job"?
High inflation can have just as devestating an effect on the economy as high unemployment. And if we make it hard for companies to get cheap labor, we'll have both.
We can get as much cheap labor as we need by increasing the number of legal immigrants that we let into the United States.
There has to be a compromise. I believe companies should be held accountable for the illegals they employ, and I also believe illegals should pay for the services they use. You could treat industries notorious for hiring illegals the same way the government treats tobacco companies - by imposing an extra tax on them. ALL companies in that particular industy - construction for example - would have to pay that tax, whether they hire illegals or not.
We don't need illegal aliens in the United States for any reason. If we need more workers, we can let in more legal immigrants.
LOL, there's a HUGE difference between unions trying to get wages above that of the market price and that of removing illegal pondscum and then having employers pay the market price of the labor.
You have to remember that illegal alien labor is subsidized labor. They may only pay an illegal $3-5/hr but the illegal gets welfare, free health care, WIC for the babe and the kids, free dental, subsidized housing, food stamps. That $3-$5/hr that the employer is paying the worker is costing society $10-$20/hr. Pay a real American $10-$15/hr. to do these jobs and we would all come out ahead.
Your head of lettuce might only cost you $2 at the grocery store, but it's costing you $5-10 through taxes.
The Mexicans/Hispanics are the group that is changing "America the melting pot" to "America the sewer pit" by resisting assimilation and through sheer numbers imposing their language, culture and political views on the millions of others.
The Mexicans are the only group of significant numbers that maintain allegiance to and citizenship of their native country while attempting to get involved in the internal affairs of their host country to benefit their homeland.
Am I a racist or anti immigrant.......hardly as I along with my parents were immigrants and began our entry into 'The melting pot" legally, with pride..........not sleeking in across the border in the middle of the night.
A nation that ceases to protect it's borders and territorial integrity ceases to exist as a nation and leaves itself open to pillage and plunder by anyone who happens along.
I don't buy the BS sob stories of these people sneaking across just because they want to better themselves and their families. With that, I am going to ask for all you bleeding heart liberal do-gooders for your address so that when I want to improve my life and that of my family I'll know where I'll be able to break in and help myself to anything I want that you have worked for all your lives and not fear prosecution because you are sooo understanding
I have a feeling not a single address will come flying my way because you do-gooders are so quick to give away the other guy's things while you stand back, pontificate and take credit for being humane. To that I say, s*rew you all!!!
Was that civil enough for you? I could have used the F word.
Wouldn't that be nice to have that wall all along Canada and Mexico?
You bring up some sensible points. I have some respectful responses.
"And don’t be fooled, the American workers are there if the pay is right."
Sure, but are consumers willing to the pay the higher price those Americans will ask for? Because someone will have to. The company won't just eat the extra cost.
"Still, it must be our decision as to who and how many we allow to immigrate."
I agree 100%
"It’s also not fair to allow the illegals to enter with a wink and nudge, is there a faster road to poverty than being in the country illegally?"
I agree with that also, which is why I suggest we change the law to make it work to our benefit. We can't ignore that there is a demand for cheap labor. Nor can you demand that consumers love lower prices - whether they're buying at Wal Mart or buying a new house. You could send every illegal immigrant home and companies will still look for the cheapest labor available. If they don't find it here, they'll look elsewhere.
"Give employers the necessary tools to verify employee’s immigration/citizenship status, then fine employers who hire illegals and mandatory jail time for repeat offenders. Get rid of “anchor baby” laws. Problem solved."
I agree with that.
"When our Southern border is under control, it will free up resources to allow us to keep a better watch over our Northern border."
Yes, but no one's explained to me...how do we control our border effectively? I've actually spoken with a border agent about this once, and he told me it's impossible. The guy has been doing this for 30-something years.
Until we know precisely how to physically control our borders, I don't think we should assume it won't be cost prohibitive.
"Exactly, we must not allow illegal immigrants from Mexico to run politics in America!"
I understand the sentiment behind that, but unfortunately, it's too late. Legal Hispanics already made make up the largest minority - and are sensitive to how illegals are treated.
BEE ESS.
Supply and demand. Why don't hs and college kids have their first jobs? Illegals take them, that's why.
Americans not willing to work? Bull.
How many hispanic DUI's, pillagers and rapists run amok here? They flee back to me-hee-co untill the furor abates. BAH!
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